Meldinger: 17
Språk: English
ceigered (Å vise profilen) 2011 1 31 10:35:35
E.g. Bob estas tiel bona kiel Jane
Bob estas kiel bona kiel Jane
I'm guessing that since the pattern in EO is generally "ti- .... ki-", e.g.
Li revenis tiam lunde kiam mi reiris.
Mi konas tiun homon kiu estas blua.
Mi malamas ties hundon kies pugo knalis.
Mi havas tian ĉapelon kia....?
That thus must mean tiel kiel doess the same thing?
Miland (Å vise profilen) 2011 1 31 11:41:13
ceigered:Bob estas tiel bona kiel Jane.This is correct; see PMEG (section Kiel kaj tiel, second example in box), or the Fundamenta Ekzercaro (section 10, last example but one).
In English we would use "as..as": "Bob is as good as Jane".
erinja (Å vise profilen) 2011 1 31 15:57:59
We do generally use the ti-...ki-... pattern, but very often (most often, I would even hazard to say) there is no ti- word.
Sometimes use of a ti- word can make things complicated and add unnecessary confusion to the sentence.
Mi konas tiun homon kiu estas blua.
Here I would say "Mi konas la homon kiu estas blua"
Li revenis tiam lunde kiam mi reiris.
Here I would say "Li revenis lunde, kiam mi reiris". If you want to say that he returned on Monday at the same time that I went back, I would say it as "Li revenis lunde, samtempe kiam mi reiris"
Mi malamas ties hundon kies pugo knalis.
I have to say, this sentence makes no sense to me. It translates as "I hate that one's dog, that one whose bum exploded" (that one = the person whose bum exploded; in this sentence it is the owner's bum who exploded).
You most often see the ti-ki- combinations with "tiel kiel" (but even then, you could say 'same kiel' - Johano estas same bela kiel Ludoviko) and with "tiu kiu" / "tio kio". If the ti- word has the same grammar as the ki- word, you can leave off the ti-word. For example, if I say "Mi aŭdis tion, kion li diris", tion and kion have the same grammatical form, and it would be ok to shorten that to "Mi aŭdis kion li diris" (dropping the ti-word)
But if the ti-word and the ki-word don't have the same grammar, you can't drop the ti-word. For example "Mi estas tio, kion li ŝatas" - tio and kion don't have the same grammar (one has the accusative -n and the other doesn't), so I can't drop the ti-word. Although colloquially, you will sometimes hear "Mi estas, kion li ŝatas", even though technically it is not correct.
ceigered (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 06:28:13
As for "same (adj) kiel", I swear I've used that somewhere before as a fluke... So it's good to know that I would have been in the clear that occasion!
erinja:Mi malamas ties hundon kies pugo knalis.Hehe, that was meant to be "I hate that one's dog whose bum "faris fortegan kaj laŭtan sonon" (intended euphemism for very big fart)" E.g. the dog's doing the fart, so clearly it doesn't follow the pattern of the rest where the ti-ki- refers generally to the same fellow. It was 40-something degrees celcius yesterday so that's the best my brain could come up with for that one!
I have to say, this sentence makes no sense to me. It translates as "I hate that one's dog, that one whose bum exploded" (that one = the person whose bum exploded; in this sentence it is the owner's bum who exploded).
Miland (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 16:42:46
erinja (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 17:33:08
T0dd (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 17:48:49
erinja:Note that "knali" is making a sudden, loud, explosive sound; it has nothing to do with breaking wind. "Knali" has a meaning like "pop", "bang", or "crack". Artillery would "knali". A dog would "furzi" (fart).So, if one were to use the compound "pugoknali" instead of "furzi," would that be a euphemism or a dysphemism?
Miland (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 18:37:20
erinja:Note that "knali" is making a sudden, loud, explosive sound; it has nothing to do with breaking wind..Dankon, I've edited my message accordingly.
Miland (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 18:41:44
ceigered:It was 40-something degrees celsius yesterday..You lucky so-and-so, I scraped frost off my windscreen yesterday!
ceigered (Å vise profilen) 2011 2 1 18:43:35
erinja:Note that "knali" is making a sudden, loud, explosive sound; it has nothing to do with breaking wind. "Knali" has a meaning like "pop", "bang", or "crack". Artillery would "knali". A dog would "furzi" (fart).You must obviously hang around people with far quieter rear ends than I
I'm pretty sure, that as far as humans who will be reading this are concerned (no musical-anus aliens for now, or the flatuence-speaking alien in Disney's Treasure Planet), the idea of the bum making a sudden, loud, explosive sound has only one meaning - someone let a ripper. Or ate lots of beans. But that results in letting off a ripper anyway.Nonetheless, I was fully aware of its definition when writing that sentence, and the existence of "furzi". But "furzi" doesn't seem quite as entertaining as "the dogs bum went kaboom" (something a child might perhaps say quite innocently).
@ Miland, haha we might not rewrite that one then with the correlation intact because the dog's already being hated for its unwanted fumigation services, but now if his owner's letting off the ripper he becomes hated twice as much!
Nonetheless it appears kies/ties (and perhaps the others but I'm not thinking of that at the moment) follow a set pattern like correlative conjunctions do, and much unlike subordinating conjunctions.