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Translation of MIE Fables

viết bởi rynasaurus, Ngày 05 tháng 2 năm 2011

Tin nhắn: 9

Nội dung: English

rynasaurus (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:43:03 Ngày 05 tháng 2 năm 2011

I've learned a bit of Esperanto by doing Ana Pana course, reading Gerda Malaperis!and reading some of Laŭ Mia Opinio. I thought I would try and translate some text from English and see if it's right. These two writings are reconstructed PIE texts, and I looked at the English translation to write them.

La Reĝo Kaj La Dio
Unufoje ekzistis reĝon. Li estis seninfana. La reĝo volis filon. Li demandis al lia pastro, "Bonvolu doni al mi filon!" La pastro diris al la reĝo, "Preĝu al la dio Verunoso." La reĝo proximiĝis la dion Verunoson kaj nun preĝi al la dio. "Aŭdu min, patro Verunoso!" La dio Verunoso descendis el la ĉielo. "Kion vi volas?" "Mi volas filon." "Mi permesas ĉi tion okazi," diras la afabla dio Verunoso. La edzino de la reĝo naskis filon.

The King And The God
Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son. He asked his priest: "May a son be born to me!" The priest said to the king: "Pray to the god Werunos". The king approached the god Werunos to pray now to the god. "Hear me, father Werunos!" The god Werunos came down from heaven. "What do you want?" "I want a son." "Let this be so", said the bright god Werunos. The king's lady bore a son.

La Ŝafo Kaj La Ĉevaloj
Sur holmo, ŝafo ke havis neniu lanon vidis ĉevalojn, unu el ili tiras pezan vagonon, unu portas grandan ŝarĝon, kaj unu portas rapide viron. La ŝafo diris al la ĉevaloj: "Mia koro doloras min, kiam mi vidas viro rajdi ĉevalojn." La ĉevalojn respondis: "Aŭskultu, ŝafo, nia koroj doloras nin kiam ni vidas ĉi tion: viro, la mastro, faras la lanon de la ŝafo en varma vestaĵo por sin mem. Post la ŝafo aŭdas tion, ĝi fuĝas al la ebanaĵo.

The Sheep And The Horses (Schleicher's Fable)
[On a hill,] a sheep that had no wool saw horses, one of them pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: "My heart pains me, seeing a man driving horses". The horses said: "Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool". Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.

Is it correct? Do you have any suggestions? (I hope I didn't miss anything..) Dankon!

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 20:57:39 Ngày 05 tháng 2 năm 2011

rynasaurus:I thought I would try and translate some text from English and see if it's right .. Do you have any suggestions?
You're doing pretty well, in my view. Here are my suggestions. I've left alone the sentences which seemed to me to be OK as they stood.
La Reĝo Kaj La Dio
Iam estis reĝo. Li petis al sia pastro, "Filo naskiĝu al mi!" La reĝo alproksimiĝis la dion Verunoso por preĝi al li. "Auskultu al mi, patro Verunono!" La dio Verunono malsupreniris el ĉielo. "Estu tiel" diris la bonkora dio Verunoso.
La Ŝafo Kaj La Ĉevaloj
Sur monteto, senlana ŝafo vidis ĉevalojn, unu el kiuj tiris pezan vagonon, unu portis pezan ŝarĝon, kaj unu portis viron rapide.
"Mia koro doloras, kiam mi vidas viron kiu pelas ĉevalojn. La ĉevaloj respondis, "Aŭskultu, ŝafo, niaj koroj doloras kiam ni vidas ĉi tion: viro, la mastro, el la lano de la ŝafo faras varman vestaĵon por si mem." Aŭdinte ĉi tion, la ŝafo fuĝis en la ebenaĵon.

rynasaurus (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 23:28:28 Ngày 05 tháng 2 năm 2011

Iam estis reĝo. Li petis al sia pastro, "Filo naskiĝu al mi!" La reĝo alproksimiĝis la dion Verunoso por preĝi al li.
La dio Verunono malsupreniris el ĉielo.
Sur monteto,
All the others make sense, but what is the difference between the words I chose and these italicized ones?

La aliajn mi komprenas, sed kio estas la diferenco inter la vortojn mi elektis kaj ĉi tiuj kursivaj vortoj?

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 00:12:14 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

rynasaurus:alproksimiĝis .. malsupreniris .. monteto
what is the difference between the words I chose and these italicized ones?
Mainly a matter of style.
Alproksimiĝi is the Esperanto word for "approach". Proksimiĝi does means "come near to", but is possibly a bit literal.
Descendi means the same as malsupreniri, but the latter is easier for people who are not familiar with the English word "descend", and shows the ability of Esperanto to create compound words better.
A similar argument applies to holmo and monteto.

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:14:17 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

Miland:
rynasaurus:alproksimiĝis .. malsupreniris .. monteto
what is the difference between the words I chose and these italicized ones?
Mainly a matter of style.
Alproksimiĝi is the Esperanto word for "approach". Proksimiĝi does means "come near to", but is possibly a bit literal.
Descendi means the same as malsupreniri, but the latter is easier for people who are not familiar with the English word "descend", and shows the ability of Esperanto to create compound words better.
A similar argument applies to holmo and monteto.
Furthermore, as far as "proksimiĝi" is concerned, it's literally "to become near (something)" which sounds like they teleported, where as the "al" gives you that ambiguous sense of direction. I believe that's the idea anyway.

And "malsupreniri" can further be changed to "iri malsupren el ĉielo", if you're an analytically-swayed person who isn't fond of giant words, but that's another style matter! ridulo.gif

Just for reference, I'll add the MIE version since the PIE versions on wikipedia are too numerous to choose a good one other than the very original one (I'll put that after).

MIE (laŭ tie ĉi)
Ówis, qésio wl̥̄nā ne est, ékwoms spekét, óinom (ghe) crum wóghom wéghontm, óinom-qe mégām bhórom, óinom-qe dhghmónm ṓku bhérontm. Ówis nu ékwobh(i)os wewqét: krd ághnutoi moí, ékwoms ágontm wirom wídntei. Ékwōs tu wewqónt: Klúdhi, ówi! krd ághnutoi nsméi wídntbh(i)os: ner, pótis, ówjom-r wĺnām sébhi chermóm wéstrom qrnéuti. Ówjom-qe wl̥̄nā ne ésti. Tod kékluwos ówis ágrom bhugét.
And Schleicher's more Sanskrit influenced version:
Avis, jasmin varnā na ā ast, dadarka akvams, tam, vāgham garum vaghantam, tam, bhāram magham, tam, manum āku bharantam. Avis akvabhjams ā vavakat: kard aghnutai mai vidanti manum akvams agantam. Akvāsas ā vavakant: krudhi avai, kard aghnutai vividvant-svas: manus patis varnām avisāms karnauti svabhjam gharmam vastram avibhjams ka varnā na asti. Tat kukruvants avis agram ā bhugat.
Off topic, looking at this almost makes one feel as if Esperanto should be classified as "indo european", due to the large amount of its word stock being very similar to IE forms.

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:53:06 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

If 'descendi' is OK for aircraft in Esperanto, maybe it's OK for gods.

By the way, I imagine there are cognate forms of descendi in all the romance languages as well as in English, Miland, since the French have descendre.

Of course, malsupreniri and malsuprenveni are the common forms for go and come down.

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:22:04 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

sudanglo:there are cognate forms of descendi in all the romance languages as well as in English.
Yes, but the use of neologismoj usually based on European languages (and maybe more on English nowadays) makes Esperanto more difficult for many learners outside the West. The debate about neologismoj will never end, as it is a question of balance, but I would say that in poetry there is a stronger case for allowing them. In my view, for international communication which usually occurs in prose, we should encourage the use of compound words where they are not too big. I also think that learners of Esperanto should be encouraged to use and practise the word-building abilities of Esperanto, and not be too quick to resort to neologismoj.

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:32:03 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

In this case I do not think it matters using a "native EO compound", and I don't think a neologism is quite so needed. Outside of this though, e.g. if we were talking about aviation etc, things may change.

BTW, why not use "venis malsupren el ĉielo", since, really, that's what's happening (as far as the "come hither/go thither" distinction is concerned).

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 18:58:54 Ngày 06 tháng 2 năm 2011

ceigered:why not use "venis malsupren el ĉielo", since, really, that's what's happening
In my view, you could, especially if you wanted to emphasize malsupren. rideto.gif

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