Meddelanden: 132
Språk: English
T0dd (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 13:44:45
Miland:That was pretty much the response, yes. I asked, what about the people who don't attend such conferences because they're not comfortable with English. The answer was, Everybody understands that competence in English is essential for a serious academic career. One has to be able to read the English-language scholarly journals to keep up with one's field.T0dd: Did I discuss Esperanto with anyone at the conference? I did indeed. What do you suppose the response was?Was it "But we all speak English here, so what's the problem?"
danielcg (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 14:23:23
T0dd:The answer was, Everybody understands that competence in English is essential for a serious academic career. One has to be able to read the English-language scholarly journals to keep up with one's field.I would have said: Certainly this is the state of facts, but is it just?
Regards,
Daniel
T0dd (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 14:44:33
danielcg:To me, this is the greatest irony. As a general thing, academics are very highly attuned to issues of social injustice. It's a stereotype that "political correctness" is rampant on university campuses. Political correctness is itself just a facetious way of referring to a concern about social injustice that is relentless enough to be tiresome.T0dd:The answer was, Everybody understands that competence in English is essential for a serious academic career. One has to be able to read the English-language scholarly journals to keep up with one's field.I would have said: Certainly this is the state of facts, but is it just?
Go to just about any modern university and talk about white privilege, or male privilege, or colonialist privilege, and you will have no difficulty finding support for your views. Mention anglophone privilege and you'll get nothing more than a shrug.
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 17:07:23
It's unreasonable to expect people to welcome into the schools what they reject outside the classroom.No it isn't, if the justification for its introduction in schools is entirely different to the case made for it, so far, outside schools. I don't think that the educational argument has been properly explored. Lots of Esperantists are still thinking along the old lines.
It occurs to me that perhaps the division between the Finvenkistoj and the Raŭmistoj is bound up with the idea that, necessarily, Finvenkistoj are working towards a world in which the majority of Esperanto speakers would not be Esperantists.
Perhaps the opposition of the Raŭmistoj to this ambition comes from a fear as to what would happen if that were the case. They actually like the status quo. They don't want Esperanto taken out of the club.
erinja (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 17:44:10
sudanglo:Perhaps the opposition of the Raŭmistoj to this ambition comes from a fear as to what would happen if that were the case. They actually like the status quo. They don't want Esperanto taken out of the club.I disagree with this characterization of Raumism. One of the main ideas in Raumism is that Esperanto speakers are a self-selected linguistic diaspora. Therefore if you consider that Italian speakers living in France and teaching Italian to their children are a "club", then I suppose that Raumists are a club. But personally, I would say that these Italian speakers in France are preserving their linguistic culture and heritage by passing it to the next generation, and propagating Italian-language culture in a place where that culture is a minority. This is the hypothetical Italian version of Raumism. That Italian language and culture are worth preserving and strengthening even in places where Italian is a minority language. Italy exists, unlike Esperantujo, but the principles are still the same.
In fact I would say that Raumism is the very opposite of a club. It's almost defining being an Esperanto speaker as a sort of ethnicity, which I find to be an uncomfortable idea, though I understand the origin of that idea.
I encourage you to read the Raum Manifesto, which is the declaration of the core ideas of Raumism. It isn't very long, and you might be surprised at what you read. In fact the Raum Manifesto expressly encourages the teaching of Esperanto in schools.
Aslan (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 18:05:03
It is important to note, however, that education is in some sense unusual in that decisions on what, and indeed how, material is taught is decided not by evidence, but largely by tradition. Contrast this approach with say those of farming, medicine or engineering.
Ken Robinson's "changing eduction paradigms" is related and rather interesting in its own right:
http://comment.rsablogs.org.uk/2010/10/14/rsa-an...
My point is that our educational system is inherently unwilling to teach a skill unless it is deemed to be "useful" (by a somewhat arbitrary definition). If everyone was instantly endowed with the ability to speak Esperanto, then it's usefulness would be immediately apparent. But unfortunately, logic does not come into the argument when it comes to how to we decide to educate children.
p.s. I hope I'm not going to start another flame war!
Miland (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 18:14:31
sudanglo: Finvenkistoj are working towards a world in which the majority of Esperanto speakers would not be Esperantists.."..(the majority of) Esperanto speakers would not be Esperantists."
I don't understand this statement. To me Esperantists and those who use Esperanto are one and the same thing. In any case, my own idea of a finvenkisto is one whose ideal is a world in which the majority of people are capable of communicating by means of Esperanto as a second language, which means that they have learned it voluntarily. I am not a Raumist in that I don't believe in creating another linguistic community - Esperanto-lando - purely for its own sake. It has to happen as a means to an end.
But to me the means doesn't involve opposing English, French or anything else. The idea may have grown among the community of Esperanto speakers in reaction to the perception that English was steadily becoming an international language in fields which at one time Esperantists hoped they would win.
But Esperanto's main potential and intended role is to further world peace, and I would say that for that purpose, a language doesn't have to be the most successful tool for professional success (as English has become). It need only be accessible to people in general, and political leaders in particular. The latter may well be professionally successful in the conventional sense, but they don't have to be.
bartlett22183 (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 20:34:18
T0dd:Even as one who has been around the conIAL (constructed international auxiliary language) movement for many years, I admit that I am still baffled by the indifference to or even hostility toward conIALs.
Exactly! And there is probably more awareness of Esperanto in Europe than anywhere else on the planet (which isn't saying much). So, in 120+ years, what have we learned from Europe? Europe isn't interested in Esperanto! Despite the fact that Esperanto is the drop-dead obvious solution to the language problems of Europe, it is not wanted. It's unreasonable to expect people to welcome into the schools what they reject outside the classroom.
To me, the whole idea of a conIAL and its advantages is almost self evident, but nevertheless none of them has made any appreciable advance except E-o to a minor degree. 
I really don't know why. 
marcuscf (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 21:31:13
bartlett22183:I admit that I am still baffled by the indifference to or even hostility toward conIALs.Same here...
sudanglo (Visa profilen) 22 februari 2011 22:55:50
Kritiko de praceloj. Ni kredas ke :- la oficialigo de Esperanto estas nek verŝajna nek esenca dum la 80aj jaroj - oni havu alternativajn celojn
If that isn't a clear statement of intention to give up on Finvenkista ambitions, I not sure what would count as such.
Yes, the manifesto explicitly mentions the proprædeutic value of Esperanto in language instruction, but that is something different from seeing the the teaching of Esperanto in schools as a means to a Finvenkista end.