Příspěvky: 132
Jazyk: English
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 22. února 2011 23:12:08
However, we do already make a distinction between Esperantlingvanoj and Esperantistoj, distinguishing those who happen to speak Esperanto from those who are committed to the cause.
In a future world, in which there are many speakers of Esperanto and the language is learnt for purely practical reasons, or command of which results from having learnt it at school, there would be many speakers of Esperanto for whom the term Esperantist would not be appropriate.
erinja (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 0:06:39
sudanglo:If that isn't a clear statement of intention to give up on Finvenkista ambitions, I not sure what would count a such.Of course Raumists have given up finvenkistaj ambitions -- if they hadn't, what would be the point to Raumism? But on many occasions you have seemed to imply that Raumists don't support Esperanto, or that they don't support promoting Esperanto as a worthwhile thing to do, or that they don't care whether there are many Esperanto speakers or few, etc. etc. And these things simply aren't true. Raumists DO believe in promoting Esperanto (but promoting it for a different purpose than Finvenkistoj believe in), they do believe in encouraging its teaching in schools (though for different reasons than Finvenkistoj), etc.
You seem to have a very poor opinion of Raumists based on the remarks you've made, and I don't think that Raumists are worthy of your scorn. I would never heap scorn on Finvenkists the way that you seem to heap it on Raumists.
We all want to promote Esperanto; we just have differing ideas of *why* we want to promote Esperanto. I can't think of a good reason to criticise anyone for their precise reasons, even if they aren't the same as my reasons.
Personally I think that Finvenkism is unrealistic but I would never accuse them of being less devoted to Esperanto than Raumists, and I would expect Finvenkists to extend to Raumists the same courtesy.
matrix (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 5:30:10
I think that both views are compatible: it is just a matter of perspective.
A stronger culture and community couldn’t give Esperanto less credibility than it already has.
And if any opportunity happened to appear, and gave Esperanto the possibility to get a prominent international role, that couldn’t be bad for the community either.
I don’t understand these fruitless wars of religion.
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 10:42:56
Of course, any individual, may learn Esperanto for whatever reason, and they may engage with the movement or be detached from it.
But to adopt Raŭmism as a political philosophy is to deny Esperanto its raison d'être.
Miland (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 11:42:45
sudanglo:we do already make a distinction between Esperantlingvanoj and Esperantistoj, distinguishing those who happen to speak Esperanto from those who are committed to the cause.I don't agree with this distinction (from Sikosek possibly). The Declaration of Boulogne (section 5) at the first World Congress in 1905 implies that an Esperantist is anyone who uses the language, whatever their ideological commitment. "Commitment to the cause" is therefore not the essential test of an Esperantist. Use of the language is.
In a future world, in which .. the language is learnt for purely practical reasons .. there would be many speakers of Esperanto for whom the term Esperantist would not be appropriate.
In fact, if a world in which the majority of people knew Esperanto as a second language did arrive, then "commitment to the cause" might no longer be essential beyond the educational work that any national language might do. Those who wished to promote the interna ideo as a cause would certainly have my approval, but I would not give them the title of "Esperantist" exclusively.
T0dd (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 14:06:23
bartlett22183:Claude Piron had much to say about this in his well-known essay Psychological Reactions to Esperanto, already mentioned in this thread. Personally, I'm not that persuaded by his broadly Freudian analysis of the situation, but I do think that there's some kind of emotional resistance involved. Wittgenstein's reaction to Esperanto as a spoken language was "disgust". Even though Wittgenstein was not typical in his thinking about much of anything, I've encountered this same response of disgust in plenty of others. It's as if Esperanto is an actual affront to them. This is another reason why arguments for Esperanto, educational or otherwise, tend to fall on deaf ears. The arguments don't undo the deep sense of "wrongness" that many people have about conlangs. I've seen this too many times to pretend it isn't there.
Even as one who has been around the conIAL (constructed international auxiliary language) movement for many years, I admit that I am still baffled by the indifference to or even hostility toward conIALs.To me, the whole idea of a conIAL and its advantages is almost self evident, but nevertheless none of them has made any appreciable advance except E-o to a minor degree.
I really don't know why.
To these people, Esperanto is perverted in the same way that artificial inflatable sexual partners are perverted, in the eyes of many.
Since rejection, in this or some other form, is far more common than acceptance, maybe the better question is: What is different about us, in virtue of which we don't experience this recoil? We, not they, are the oddballs.
For some of us, it's idealism. For others, it's strong curiosity about languages. For yet others, it may be a general affinity for underdog ideas.
Chainy (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 14:52:20
Radio~!:I don't know about anyone else but this discussion has gone on for so long that I'm struggling to follow itI lost track of this discussion a long time ago! As soon as I hear things about 'rauxmismo' and 'finvenkismo' I just lose all interest.
I mean, what the hell does it matter? All Esperantists are in agreement that it would be nice to increase the number of speakers, continue to produce more quality literature, improve the dictionaries, find uses for the language now as well as in the future.
Why bother trying to create separate camps within such a small community?! It's just silly. And then you get the 'Civitanoj' with their preposterous ideas - they seem to be people who simply enjoy being in some kind of clique.
darkweasel (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 15:06:56
Chainy:+1Radio~!:I don't know about anyone else but this discussion has gone on for so long that I'm struggling to follow itI lost track of this discussion a long time ago! As soon as I hear things about 'rauxmismo' and 'finvenkismo' I just lose all interest.
T0dd (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 16:07:03
Chainy:Absolutely, the discussion has wandered from its starting point. This isn't exactly startling in web forums.
I mean, what the hell does it matter? All Esperantists are in agreement that it would be nice to increase the number of speakers, continue to produce more quality literature, improve the dictionaries, find uses for the language now as well as in the future.
As to whether it matters, why shouldn't it? We're talking about beliefs, and beliefs have consequences. Not all Esperantists are in agreement that it would be nice to produce more "quality literature." There are, and have always been, those who believe that literature is for the natural languages. Many of those who went over to Ido had that view, in consequence of which the production of original literary works was not a big part of the Ido movement.
It's not a matter of creating camps in the Esperanto world; it's about recognizing what's already there.
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 23. února 2011 17:51:09
Beliefs do have consequences. I'm sure you could illustrate this point from your knowledge of the history of philosophy.
Radio, EAB doesn't need my £25, we have discussed this elsewhere. If you are interested I'll tell you the story behind the Praktika Bildvortaro and OUP, at Eastbourne if you're going, but not here in a public forum.