Too rong don't lead WARNING
On this topic of websites being translated automatically as with forum posts etc, I think that the risk is then not to Esperanto but that there may be some cultural clashes that may arise from translation.

For example, even when speaking the same language, some aspects of the culture don't translate well. Even within the core group of western English speaking nations, there are some things that using English words translate HORRIBLY across the US to Australia and Australia to the US. One example might be coarse language, since Australians frequently use words like "bugger" etc even at young ages, while in the US I think if someone heard their child talking about "oh for buggery's sake!" they'd be rather mortified. But a better example I know I can confirm is that US political language does NOT correlate to Australian political language. The Australian liberal party for example is Australia's conservative party, while the Labor party is our progressive party (actually, nowadays I think only the greens are true progressives). On the other hand though, in the US there is a negative stigma with "liberals" in that they are too liberal in their policies etc.

Now, this gets messy when we factor in people from non-English speaking backgrounds. When we hear someone speaking our own language, we expect them to have the same cultural reality as us. But when that's not so, we either conclude that A) they're strange, or B) they can't speak English properly. So lets say some Japanese people are talking about religion or philosophy from a pantheist point of view, and then a staunch christian or muslim comes into the discussion thinking they have the same culture (they have the same language after all). It's inevitable that misunderstandings will be created. Here on the EO forums it doesn't happen as much (since everyone knows automatically they're in the minority even amongst their own countrymen, since all are learners or unique somehow with the language), but looking at things like Yahoo Answers which is a melting pot of cultures, the predominate US user base often act as if they've forgotten the rest of the world exists, and the rest of the world are subsequently, well "oppressed" isn't the right word but they sure don't get as stronger a say or just come off strange, or even worse are treated like some radical since they're expected to match the culture of the same language they're speaking.

Seamless automatic translation means that people are automatically being judged from a point of view that doesn't naturally apply to them, even if they didn't want to join in on this judgement. On the other hand, a language learner, and those they speak to, are generally humbled by the glaringly obvious fact that this is someone trying to enter another culture and needs help integrating. Plus, someone who has to learn a language to learn more about a culture will probably appreciate the culture more, than someone who just gets a seamless translation and decides "hey, these guys are nuts/their culture sucks", since "translated culture" loses its impact and can only be viewed from the perspective of the culture it's been translated into.

IMHO Internet etiquette and cross-cultural awareness and understanding simply isn't at the same level as cross-cultural language interaction. So perhaps it's best that "seamless translation" is left only in the hands of actual translators and never becomes usable enough to be seamlessly integrating into mainstream websites and services. I feel horrible saying it though, since such technology is something that excites me, so it's like restraining myself from the tastiest apple pie in the world that I've been given permission to eat.

Genjix:I wonder... Where are all the supposedly advanced Indians, Chinese + others? They use the software but you never see any of them participating in development..

I suspect that many are working for companies and earning salaries. In the early 90s when I was on an AI course, an instructor told us that much of the software had been written in India.

sudanglo:It will be a sad day when it's Raŭmismo or nothing. I think, it wouldn't take long in those circumstances for Esperanto to pretty much die out.

There would be no feeling that the language has to be ready to operate in all fields - to be fit for purpose, ready to play its role when political circumstances change.

In response to that and erinja's point that Raŭmismo is already just about the only game in town...

It's really an interesting question. Some sociolinguist really ought to try to suss it out. I'd be very interested to know whether many/most Esperantists start out as Finvenkistoj, and how many stay that way. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many do, and a large percentage lose interest when they realize that the Fina Venk' is not nigh. Others probably convert to Raŭmismo somewhere along the line.

If Finvenkismo is what gets people in the door, and machine translation makes Finvenkismo seem even more delusional that it seems now, then yes, that would be the demise of Esperanto.

That's a lot of "ifs" though.

Raŭmismo as a philosopy just doesn't provide the motivation to dedicate ones life to Esperanto. And in our history it's been those individuals who have dedicated their lives to the language who have advanced Esperanto to where it is today. There would be no PIV or PAG without individuals like Waringhien. Raŭmismo wouldn't have created a site like Lernu.

I'm inclined to agree. On the other hand, language geeks will always exist, and there is an appeal to belonging to a small and unique international community. The Internet makes it possible for people with obscure interests to find each other, making that very interest more appealing to people who are merely considering it.

Playing the ocarina is a hobby of mine. The ocarina is a very obscure instrument, and I've yet to meet anyone else in my area who plays one. The Internet makes it possible for me to be socially connected to many others who have the same interest, and as a result, ocarinas themselves are more popular than they would otherwise be (even though they're still not "popular").

I think Raŭmismo can motivate a modest level of growth in the Esperanto community, but I'm just guessing. There's a big gap between Esperanto's level of success and, say, Ido's. Possibly these translation gadgets would depress the movement to the Ido level.

Label it how you will, the idea that Esperanto is more important than a mere language hobby (like learning Klingon) permeates Esperanto culture.

I don't see Raŭmismo as providing Esperanto with any more significance than say playing the Ocarina, or any other pastime.

erinja:...but if you learned Esperanto only for ideological reasons, only because of the Fina Venko, then you must be very devoted to the cause, and extremely patient and accepting of our continual lack of a Fina Venko. You would have to be a real die-hard true believer to keep on with Esperanto in the absence of any kind of culture, events, activities, etc. Most people aren't such true believers, and belief in the idea alone isn't enough to keep them involved in Esperanto. Maybe someone comes to Esperanto because of the ideology, but I think they stay with it because of the culture. Esperanto has to be self-sustaining based on its own merits and culture, not only based on the idea of an international auxiliary language.

T0dd:It's really an interesting question. Some sociolinguist really ought to try to suss it out. I'd be very interested to know whether many/most Esperantists start out as Finvenkistoj, and how many stay that way. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that many do, and a large percentage lose interest when they realize that the Fina Venk' is not nigh. Others probably convert to Raŭmismo somewhere along the line.

Guilty as charged . I started learning because i hated being one of those Mono-linguistic English-speaking people who expects the rest of the world to speak English, but i was too unmotivated to attempt to learn French, Spanish or anything else, this seemed the fairest alternative and whilst it's not that widely spoken, someone has to be the first to learn it.

So i started learning. After being on lernu! for a while, using the chat a few times to speak to people some who couldn't speak English at all/very well, I find myself more and more motivated because of the interesting people I meet online on a daily basis through esperanto. In the 3-4 months I've been learning I think I've met a wider range of people and cultures than in my life before then.

Don't get me wrong, I still support the Finvenko and would love it to become true, but I don't expect to see it happen in my lifetime- I know people of my age who are too 'British' to learn a foreign language, this included.

I just came from a class (not anything to do with language) and asked my students what effect a good portable spoken language translation app would have on the study of foreign languages in the US. I didn't mention Esperanto, of course, because then I'd have to explain what it is, and I didn't want to spend the whole class period on this.

The overwhelming majority said that it would pretty much destroy language instruction. One student said that it would do for language instruction what email did for the Post Office.

sudanglo:Label it how you will, the idea that Esperanto is more important than a mere language hobby (like learning Klingon) permeates Esperanto culture.

I don't see Raŭmismo as providing Esperanto with any more significance than say playing the Ocarina, or any other pastime.

I dun even know very well what Raumism is other than "promotion of EO culture and language as belonging to EOists in contrast to the goal of the final-victory where EO becomes the world's second language", but, as with the ocarina, there's always ways to make obscure things popular.

(I don't know if you're aware, but the ocarina is an important item in many of the legend of zelda games Nintendo has made - I suppose it is thanks to that game that most people my age know what one is!)

And with popularity comes purpose/demand (the two both being intertwined I suppose in this case)

Genjix:I wonder... Where are all the supposedly advanced Indians, Chinese + others? They use the software but you never see any of them participating in development.

On the contrary, there are 1000s of US, Canadian, and UK companies who offshore development jobs to India, Pakistan, China, and other places. Last year I was laid off, and my last 3 months were spent training the dev team in Mexico how to do my job (sounds more depressing than it really was, leaving that job was the best thing that ever happened to me ).

At my company, there are people with lots of backgrounds who have developed software in Germany, Poland, Ukraine, China, Japan, India, Pakistan, Nepal, Israel and a variety of other languages before writing software in English.

But, for what its worth, English *is* the lingua franca of software development, and all of the most popular languages use English keywords, including OCaml which was developed in France and Ruby which originated in Japan. So you can't really say that non-English speaking countries aren't writing software -- its just, for the large part, most programmers already speak English as a first or second language.

sudanglo:
At the moment, computers and the Internet are greatly aiding the spread of Esperanto.

The growth in the number of people with a basic knowledge of Esperanto in the last five years must surely be considerably greater than that in any five year period between 1950 and 1990.

However, what do you imagine will happen in the near future when a hand-held device becomes available which accepts an audio input in a foreign language and outputs to an earpiece (in a passable if not perfect rendering) a translation in another language?

With Google Translation:
=======en>fr==========
À l'heure actuelle, les ordinateurs et l'Internet sont grandement aider la propagation de l'espéranto.

La croissance du nombre de personnes ayant une connaissance de base de l'espéranto dans les cinq dernières années, doit certainement être considérablement plus importante que dans toute période de cinq ans entre 1950 et 1990.

Cependant, qu'est-ce que vous imaginez qui se passera dans un proche avenir quand un appareil portatif est disponible qui accepte une entrée audio dans une langue étrangère et les sorties à un écouteur (dans un passable si elle n'est pas rendu parfait) une traduction dans une autre langue?
=====fr>de==============
Derzeit sind Computer und das Internet eine große Hilfe die Ausbreitung von Esperanto.

Die wachsende Zahl von Menschen mit Grundkenntnissen des Esperanto in den letzten fünf Jahren, muss sicherlich erheblich größer als in jedem Zeitraum von fünf Jahren zwischen 1950 und 1990.

Doch was Sie sich vorstellen, in naher Zukunft geschehen wird, wenn ein tragbares Gerät zur Verfügung, Audio-Eingang akzeptiert in einer fremden Sprache und gibt ein Zuhörer (in einem passablen wenn nicht vollendet ) Eine Übersetzung in eine andere Sprache?
=======de>en=======

Currently, computers and the Internet is a great help to spread of Esperanto.

The growing number of people with basic knowledge of Esperanto in the last five years, must certainly significantly larger than in any period of five years between 1950 and 1990.

But what you imagine will happen in the near future when a portable device available audio input accepts in a foreign language and makes a listener (in a passable if not perfect) A translation into another language?

It's not perfect, but it has been a lot of progress

Somebody mentioned in this thread that technology enables practitioners with obscure interests to more easily connect. That's hard to deny. In fact, it sounds a lot like the Esperanto/LERNU partnership to me!

On a related topic, it also sounds like a partnership sought by people operating at the highest tiers of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: 1) Physiological Needs, 2) Safety Needs, 3) Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness, 4) Needs for Esteem, 5) Needs for Self-Actualization. Aren't most members here at LERNU living number 5?

This is important because it seems to me that a lot of Zamenhof's motivation came as the result of 2 above in his daily life; threats of a daily head-bashing by any number of local groups. To this end, the Fina Venko has already occurred (no daily head-bashing) in most of our lives and it had very little to do with a language.

Compare that with the category 1 motivation to learn English in many parts of the world; i.e. put food on the table and acquire shelter.

My conclusion is that Raumism is not so much a disagreement with Zamenhof's philosophy, but rather a statement of where one lives in Maslow's hierarchy above. When you're living at level 5 already, technology helps you connect.