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sudanglo (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 11:32:51 ص
Surely, if we are going to draw parallels, the comparison should not be with religion, but with politics.
The Finvenkistoj do not so much have faith in the Fina Venko existentially, as believe in it it as a desirable goal.
The difference in the philosophy of the two camps is revealed in their bearing on specific questions.
For example, should Esperanto be taught in the schools.
Whilst the Finvenkistoj would argue that this is probably the best path to the production of millions of Esperanto speakers and should be campaigned for, the Rauxmistoj, on the other hand, do not feel any compulsion to impose their hobby - their goals are not political.
The Finvenkistoj do not so much have faith in the Fina Venko existentially, as believe in it it as a desirable goal.
The difference in the philosophy of the two camps is revealed in their bearing on specific questions.
For example, should Esperanto be taught in the schools.
Whilst the Finvenkistoj would argue that this is probably the best path to the production of millions of Esperanto speakers and should be campaigned for, the Rauxmistoj, on the other hand, do not feel any compulsion to impose their hobby - their goals are not political.
T0dd (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 1:35:54 م
sudanglo:Interesting. I suppose there are plenty of self-identified Raŭmists who would agree that the Fina Venko is a desirable goal, but not a believable one. To muster a level of intention, one must not only think that something is desirable, but also believe that it is achievable.
The Finvenkistoj do not so much have faith in the Fina Venko existentially, as believe in it it as a desirable goal.
For example, should Esperanto be taught in the schools.That's probably true. But keep in mind that the ultimate goal of Finvenkismo is the same as the goal of the little handheld translator app that started this discussion: To make it unnecessary for anyone to need to learn any further language, for communication purposes; to solve the "world language problem." With respect to this goal, Esperanto would be the last language one would need to learn, for international communication. The translator app would obviate even that need. If Finvenkistoj really believe what they say, they should wholeheartedly support the translator app.
Whilst the Finvenkistoj would argue that this is probably the best path to the production of millions of Esperanto speakers and should be campaigned for, the Rauxmistoj, on the other hand, do not feel any compulsion to impose their hobby - their goals are not political.
--Unless of course they just like Esperanto, as an end in itself and not linked to any linguistic utopian vision. In that case, they start to sound more like Raŭmists anyway.
I think it's telling that the arguments generally presented for the teaching of Esperanto in schools are generally not about the Fina Venko at all. If anything, this aspect of Esperanto is concealed. Instead, the educational "stealth argument" is used. That argument presents Esperanto as a means to study other languages more effectively. It avoids acknowledging the Fina Venko as a goal (since that would not be accepted) and it avoids defending Esperanto as culturally worthwhile in its own right (since that wouldn't be accepted either).
Speaking as an academic, I know that if I tried to present this "educational" argument to my colleagues, they'd see through it in less than a minute. That is, they'd see it as a kind of "trojan horse" maneuver to bring about linguistic utopia.
erinja (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 3:04:09 م
T0dd:Speaking as an academic, I know that if I tried to present this "educational" argument to my colleagues, they'd see through it in less than a minute. That is, they'd see it as a kind of "trojan horse" maneuver to bring about linguistic utopia.They would see it as a Trojan horse and they would be right.
Of course Esperanto *does* have educational value, and I strongly agree that introducing it in schools would help students gain confidence in foreign languages in general. But if someone invented a more suitable language (easier to learn, whatever) for this purpose, I know that the Esperanto organizations wouldn't support it. Naturally, they support Esperanto, not other languages.
Every interest group has its interest though. I wouldn't blame a club of cricket enthusiasts for trying to promote playing cricket in schools, as a way to learn good manners, or a knitting society for trying to introduce knitting clubs to schools for whatever reason.
T0dd (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 4:18:55 م
erinja:No doubt, and this is part of the risk of the educational argument. If you really want to introduce a language for the purpose of preparing students to learn other languages, then it would make sense to choose a language designed for the purpose, which Esperanto was not. The fact that Esperanto already has literature and resources wouldn't move anybody, since after all the educational idea is not to study Esperanto culture; it's to use some "easy" language as a way to move on to something else.
Of course Esperanto *does* have educational value, and I strongly agree that introducing it in schools would help students gain confidence in foreign languages in general. But if someone invented a more suitable language (easier to learn, whatever) for this purpose, I know that the Esperanto organizations wouldn't support it. Naturally, they support Esperanto, not other languages.
If I were going to make an argument for teaching Esperanto in schools, I'd base it on the premise that Esperanto is interesting and culturally rich in its own right, and is therefore a suitable subject for academic study. Of course, I know very well the frosty reception this argument would receive--and it would
still be treated as a Trojan horse, even if I wore a Raŭmismo T-shirt while making my case.
sudanglo (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 5:26:25 م
If Raŭmistoj are also politically committed, and would lend weight to the campaign then I have no objection to Raŭmismo, and for practical purposes the dichotomy falls away.
But that's not how I see Raŭmismo.
The idea, by the way, that some other invented language might be suitable for educational purposes is laughable. Where are the dictionaries, the grammars, the course, books, the readers, the exams?
How would it be possible with this other recently invented language for the pupils to correspond with schools in other countries or set up Skype links for cultural exchange? Enough schools round the world exist, in which Esperanto is taught, for this to happen with Esperanto.
Mondeto.com povides accounts of how Esperanto classrooms in Australia are experiencing cultural exchanges right now.
Of course it's a Trojan Horse for the Finvenkistoj, but for the rest of the world to see it this way, they must be already taking Esperanto far more seriously than would seem to be the case.
Should this be an issue, it can be solved far more easily by spin - it's just to give pupils awareness of their own language and teach them some grammar, as we used to do by teaching Latin.
This is far easier than confronting directly the usual counter argument against Esperanto (we already have English as a lingua franca).
In principle, getting Esperanto into the schools around the world would make the Fina Venko one generation away.
The argument is not that the Raŭmistoj should be rounded up and put in concentration camps. The argument is that Finvenkismo is central to Esperanto's health.
And if these instant translators are on the horizon, it behoves us to get a move on, to ensure that we are multi-million strong before they appear.
But that's not how I see Raŭmismo.
The idea, by the way, that some other invented language might be suitable for educational purposes is laughable. Where are the dictionaries, the grammars, the course, books, the readers, the exams?
How would it be possible with this other recently invented language for the pupils to correspond with schools in other countries or set up Skype links for cultural exchange? Enough schools round the world exist, in which Esperanto is taught, for this to happen with Esperanto.
Mondeto.com povides accounts of how Esperanto classrooms in Australia are experiencing cultural exchanges right now.
Of course it's a Trojan Horse for the Finvenkistoj, but for the rest of the world to see it this way, they must be already taking Esperanto far more seriously than would seem to be the case.
Should this be an issue, it can be solved far more easily by spin - it's just to give pupils awareness of their own language and teach them some grammar, as we used to do by teaching Latin.
This is far easier than confronting directly the usual counter argument against Esperanto (we already have English as a lingua franca).
In principle, getting Esperanto into the schools around the world would make the Fina Venko one generation away.
The argument is not that the Raŭmistoj should be rounded up and put in concentration camps. The argument is that Finvenkismo is central to Esperanto's health.
And if these instant translators are on the horizon, it behoves us to get a move on, to ensure that we are multi-million strong before they appear.
T0dd (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 6:56:17 م
sudanglo:If the idea is simply to use Esperanto to prepare students to study some other language, then you must realize that if this argument were to be accepted at all (doubtful), it would only be implemented as a short experience. Maybe you could sell a one-semester program to give students a feel for a new language, then on to "real" languages. For this purpose, you don't need a lot of resources of the sort you mention.
The idea, by the way, that some other invented language might be suitable for educational purposes is laughable. Where are the dictionaries, the grammars, the course, books, the readers, the exams?
As soon as the idea got any traction, there would be no shortage of people applying for grants to develop a language designed for exactly this niche.
All those cultural exchange resources would be reserved for the "real" language classes. To suppose otherwise would be to present Esperanto as a language alongside the others, rather than as a gateway to them.
If I were going to make an argument for Esperanto in the schools, I'd do my best to show that Esperanto isn't what many people think it is: a quaint failure from a more naive era. I'd try to show that although it started out as a Utopian project, it has become a self-sustaining cultural diaspora, unique in human history.
I'd argue that given the absymal outcomes of traditional language instruction mightn't it be a good idea to offer a language that many students would achieve a level of proficiency in, so they could get some enjoyment out of using it? I would not argue that after a year of Esperanto they'll really hit the ground running when you put them in a French class. For one thing, I don't know it to be true; for another, a year is simply too much time to give to a subject whose intent is to prepare students for another subject that they probably aren't interested in anyway.
Then I'd have to work on answers to the question, "How will this help our students to get accepted to Harvard/Oxford/Sorbonne/ANU/Kyoto U/ etc.?"
Genjix (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 11:37:34 م
gutenberg was going to kill news
tractors were going to kill farming
radio was going to kill newspapers
records were going to kill music
television was going to kill radio
vhs-recorders were going to kill the movie industry
the internet is going to kill artists livelihoods
translators are going to kill languages
tractors were going to kill farming
radio was going to kill newspapers
records were going to kill music
television was going to kill radio
vhs-recorders were going to kill the movie industry
the internet is going to kill artists livelihoods
translators are going to kill languages
danielcg (عرض الملف الشخصي) 11 فبراير، 2011 11:58:28 م
Great synthesis, Genjix. I couldn't agree more.
Daniel
Daniel
Genjix:gutenberg was going to kill news
tractors were going to kill farming
radio was going to kill newspapers
records were going to kill music
television was going to kill radio
vhs-recorders were going to kill the movie industry
the internet is going to kill artists livelihoods
translators are going to kill languages
erinja (عرض الملف الشخصي) 12 فبراير، 2011 12:53:48 ص
Of course records didn't kill music.
But records changed music. When music became something that was primarily done on recordings, people started adding a lot of elements to it that you couldn't necessarily do live.
The internet didn't kill newspapers but many newspapers did die, and the remaining newspapers had to figure out how to adapt to survive. Newspapers are still in the process of figuring out what to do to stay alive.
Television didn't kill radio but radio is much different today than it was back then. Radio dramas are all but dead, and music and news have come to the forefront. The radio industry had to readjust and give people what they wanted after television replaced the radio drama.
So I definitely wouldn't say that electronic translators will "kill off" languages. But it is fair to say that the advent of electronic translators would have some kind of impact on languages and language learning. What kind of impact? It's hard to tell.
Small languages aren't likely to be included in a translator so speakers of languages with few speakers are likely to have to learn a major language the old fashioned way, to use the translator at all. If and when the translators were available in nearly all languages, then they might have a preservative effect on small languages. It would no longer be necessary to learn a major language to communicate with people outside of your small language group.
But records changed music. When music became something that was primarily done on recordings, people started adding a lot of elements to it that you couldn't necessarily do live.
The internet didn't kill newspapers but many newspapers did die, and the remaining newspapers had to figure out how to adapt to survive. Newspapers are still in the process of figuring out what to do to stay alive.
Television didn't kill radio but radio is much different today than it was back then. Radio dramas are all but dead, and music and news have come to the forefront. The radio industry had to readjust and give people what they wanted after television replaced the radio drama.
So I definitely wouldn't say that electronic translators will "kill off" languages. But it is fair to say that the advent of electronic translators would have some kind of impact on languages and language learning. What kind of impact? It's hard to tell.
Small languages aren't likely to be included in a translator so speakers of languages with few speakers are likely to have to learn a major language the old fashioned way, to use the translator at all. If and when the translators were available in nearly all languages, then they might have a preservative effect on small languages. It would no longer be necessary to learn a major language to communicate with people outside of your small language group.
RiotNrrd (عرض الملف الشخصي) 12 فبراير، 2011 1:47:46 ص
erinja:Small languages aren't likely to be included in a translator so speakers of languages with few speakers are likely to have to learn a major language the old fashioned way, to use the translator at all.And there's no reason THAT language couldn't be Esperanto.
I mean, if you're going to learn a language just so you can speak it to a machine (which will then translate it into some set of target languages), that language ought to be easy. There's no sense in learning one with lots of exceptions and idioms and whatnot if the machine is going to be doing the heavy lifting. You just want to be able to communicate with the machine in a way IT understands.
Esperanto would work fine in that capacity.