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Dictionaries

de UUano, 2011-februaro-09

Mesaĝoj: 25

Lingvo: English

T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 01:13:32

Could someone provide a comparison of Benson vs Wells, as English to Esperanto dictionaries? Since I only know the old Wells, maybe it's time to get something new.

For stricly an Esperanto dictionary, I have the PIV I got in the 1980s, which I seldom look at. Like erinja, I have an old PV Kun Suplemento that is easier to use. I think there's a real need for an updated concise Esperanto dictionary. Meanwhile, I quite like the Simpla Vortaro front end for ReVo on my BlackBerry.

RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 01:59:45

The entry for the word "set" runs about a quarter to a third of a column in the old Wells dictionary (I don't have the new), and runs three full columns in Benson. Each page in either dictionary has two columns, and the type-size is roughly similar.

That's the best comparison I could think of.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 02:30:54

Benson gives lots more examples than Wells. Benson's dictionary is a similar thickness to Wells even though it's unidirectional.

Benson's dictionary does have a few doubtful words in it, Benson's neologisms that no one ever seemed to pick up, but he does mark out his neologisms so if you feel uncomfortable with them, they're easy to avoid.

I also wish there were a new edition of PV, or something similar. I would definitely buy a new one. Mine is seriously crumbling apart and I treat it like an ancient relic each time I use it, lest the front cover fall off (hanging by a thread) or the pages fall out and get lost (also very fragile).

UUano (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 05:02:50

T0dd:Meanwhile, I quite like the Simpla Vortaro front end for ReVo on my BlackBerry.
What are these? I've seen some reference to them but don't know what you all are talking about. demando.gif

NiteMirror (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 07:44:44

UUano:
T0dd:Meanwhile, I quite like the Simpla Vortaro front end for ReVo on my BlackBerry.
What are these? I've seen some reference to them but don't know what you all are talking about. demando.gif
www.simplavortaro.org is an online dictionary (I know it's more a front end for ReVo than actually a dictionary as said above, but it's the easiest way I can describe it) that uses the Reta Vortaro (ReVo) database/dictionary (www.reta-vortaro.de).

[A post I could answer! lol]

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 11:19:59

The important difference between PIV and NPIV and the Benson (English-Esperanto) and and Wells (Bilingual) for careful use of the language is that PIV and NPIV are crammed with examples of actual usage culled from the Literature.

However, there are online sources which can you use to determine how a particular word is actually used.

There are two searchable databases on line, Tekstaro and also CorpusEye.

Perhaps, the cheapest full solution is to buy a copy of Wells and when in doubt search the databases for actual examples in context.

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 14:43:35

The problem with PIV is that it puts in ALL words. Seriously, ALL words, including neologisms that are best avoided. It doesn't necessarily mark out which words are best avoided. I wouldn't really recommend PIV to a beginner.

I have considered buying it on multiple occasions and in the end I decided it would just gather dust on my shelf, so I have decided against it every time.

I think that something like PV is much more likely to get serious use by a beginning/intermediate Esperantist. It's easy to keep it on your desk and refer to it, you aren't dragging a huge volume off the shelf, and you aren't hunting through thousands of words for obscure plants and animals in order to find the definition of "havi".

I agree that the examples from literature are nice but usability is a factor, too.

UUano (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-11 17:18:39

haha good to know. I do want something...utilitarian. But I don't mind wading through pages and pages of dictionaries for hours...like I said, I learn better that way. So I'll consider that for some future acquisition.

I'm strange, I know. rido.gif

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-12 10:10:24

The issue of neologisms, has a very long history in the Esperanto movement.

Basically the two camps were:-

On the one hand, those who resisted their introduction from the fear that this would make the language too complicated and thereby the propaganda advantage of arguing that Esperanto was simple to learn would be lost.

On the other hand, those who felt that for Esperanto to be comparable in expressive power with the national languages some additions to the lexus, over and above what could be achieved by wordbuilding, was vital.

To some extent this division has connections with the arguments between the Raŭmistoj and the Finvenkistoj, and also the division between the Skemismo and Naturalismo.

Looking into the historical development of Esperanto through studying early dictionaries actually shows how many earlier 'neologismoj' are now firmly embedded in the language as they proved to be really useful.

It's this latter point that counts. When a word is seen to be useful and readily learnable it is adopted. And simplicity is not really lost as, in case of need, it may often still be possible to conjure a compound word from the existing root stock to convey the meaning in context.

You can see this tension between the two schools of thought played out still, in some of the comments in the thread on what to say for handcar (drezino/relĉareto).

Sometimes neologismoj appear without any controversy, because the need for them is great and the form adopted presents little comprehsion difficulty. As an example I might suggest Gugli (to Google) - a word you will only find in NPIV2005 as a noun - Guglo meaning ten to the power of 100.

UUano (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-12 19:07:01

sudanglo:As an example I might suggest Gugli (to Google) - a word you will only find in NPIV2005 as a noun - Guglo meaning ten to the power of 100.
That should be the word "googol" in English.

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