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от Miland, 25 февраля 2011 г.

Сообщений: 10

Язык: English

Miland (Показать профиль) 25 февраля 2011 г., 14:54:20

Here is a link to a good general article about Esperanto, which may be worth passing to enquirers.

T0dd (Показать профиль) 25 февраля 2011 г., 16:09:19

It's very good. I think Okrent is actually more sympathetic than the "Insane!" quotation suggests, but on the whole it's a very good presentation.

biguglydave (Показать профиль) 25 февраля 2011 г., 17:19:51

From time to time I take a break from work to see what's going here. This is one of the more interesting links I've see for a while. Thanks!

The article mentioned something I had read when I first investigated the language, as follows:

According to William Auld, Esperanto was greater than the Mona Lisa or the nine symphonies of Beethoven because, unlike these, the language published by the Polish doctor Ludoviko Zamenhof in 1887 could itself be used to create other works of art.

My regret is that I didn't find Esperanto earlier in life. For those of you who have the talent, go create stuff!

T0dd (Показать профиль) 25 февраля 2011 г., 18:27:25

Today, before one of my classes, I was taking books out of my brief case, and a copy of Tien by Claude Piron tumbled out onto the table. A student asked me what it was, so I explained and passed it around for them to look at. To my surprise, one of them knew something about Esperanto, and had actually been to the museum in Vienna.

Since this is a class in Moral Philosophy, and we are just starting in on John Stuart Mill's Utilitarianism, I thought it wouldn't be an abuse of my position to discuss Esperanto and the issue of anglophone privilege from that standpoint.

When I got back to my office after class, Miland's post was here. I had read this article before but had forgotten about it. So I sent the link in an email to the students in that class. It will be interesting to see what reaction, if any, they have.

sudanglo (Показать профиль) 26 февраля 2011 г., 10:02:36

In the UK we will shortly be subject to a census - apparently it is 10 years since the last one - at a cost of 400 or so million pounds.

There have been various comments about this on the radio here, and whilst listening to one of these, I was amazed to hear that the survey will utilise 57 languages! This in the homeland of English!

Never mind Esperanto. It's about time that the inhabitants of the UK spoke English. It's multiculturalism gone mad.

Miland (Показать профиль) 26 февраля 2011 г., 11:29:23

T0dd:I sent the link in an email to the students in that class. It will be interesting to see what reaction, if any, they have.
Indeed, by all means tell us when you know!

erinja (Показать профиль) 26 февраля 2011 г., 13:36:10

sudanglo: I was amazed to hear that the survey will utilise 57 languages! This in the homeland of English!
The point of a census is to count everyone. I can understand countries not providing multilingual ballots for voting etc. but the point of a census is to count *everyone*, not just those who speak English. Some of those people may only have been there for a short time and they don't speak English yet. Some may be old people who are unlikely ever to learn English (and what are their families supposed to do, abandon them in the old country?)

When we had our last census here in the US last year, a strong push was made to get everyone counted, including the illegal immigrants. Of course they broke the law but the point is to count everyone accurately, not to force them to speak English. An English-only census would surely give erroneous results.

I find it hard to complain against foreign-language translations of forms, signage etc. When I have spent time abroad and needed to have dealings with a foreign government, and spoke the language poorly or not at all, I have always been so thankful to have forms available in English. It isn't an easy life, to live in a place where you don't speak the language. A form printed in your language helps a lot. More likely than not the people giving you the form don't speak English anyway so it's nothing like being back home where you just do everything in English, easy peasy. It's a strugge. And while I do think that when you move somewhere, it's your duty to learn the language, that learning process takes time and some people may never become skilled.

ceigered (Показать профиль) 27 февраля 2011 г., 4:44:08

sudanglo:Never mind Esperanto. It's about time that the inhabitants of the UK spoke English. It's multiculturalism gone mad.
Since when has all of the homeland of English spoken English? okulumo.gif It's going to increase though, no doubt, as the idea of "ones home is ones nation" changes to the idea of "ones home is ones planet". Cultures and linguistic populations will become more and more spread out than ever before thanks to the fact that it's now legal in most countries to leave without being a merchant etc or being branded a pariah or traitor. People from war torn or authoritarian countries will move to countries they see as having a better lifestyle, the densely populated east will continue to have people move from it to the west while people move from the west to the east for things like easy jobs teaching English etc, jobs that don't exist in the west as much (well, as easy as teaching can be lango.gif).

I doubt having multiple languages on a census is solely responsible for ramping up the costs though despite nicely written titles like "UK census expected to cost nearly £500m due to translation fees". Bureaucracy seems more problematic.

Given comments on this website though, it seems like there are many in the UK who miss the "golden hayday" of the British empire and think multiculturalism makes the UK weak. I think such thinking may actually contribute to any perceived weakness by only perpertuating the identity crisis the UK has. The UK should only be the UK as it is, not as it was or how people imagine it should be.

Australia needs a similar hard kick up the arse, too many people worried about how Australians aren't patriotic enough, too many worried about how evil we are for taking over someone elses land, not enough people going "hey, let's make use of what we've got and make it into something awesome", rather than going "oh no we don't have the best of the best so we won't do anything until we get it".

sudanglo (Показать профиль) 27 февраля 2011 г., 10:25:59

It is one thing to help tourists and short stay visitors to a country, quite another thing to resign oneself to residents of a country not being able to speak the language.

I, along with many others, never voted to turn the UK into a tower of Babel, or an airport lounge.

There's an awful lot of symbolism in the idea that it is necessary to produce the census in 57 languages.

Is it so unreasonable to say to immigrants (first or second generation) if you are going to live here we at least expect you to learn the country's language (particularly so, if it is a world language) and adopt its values.

I for one one was pleased to hear the UK's PM speak out recently against the excesses of multiculturalism.

By the way you have to query the sense of questions about happiness. I wonder if the questions on this topic mean the same in all the 57 translations.

Miland (Показать профиль) 27 февраля 2011 г., 13:44:21

The census aims to obtain accurate information from everyone living in the UK, including people who do not speak English. The more diverse the community of foreign visitors or immigrants, the greater the number of languages into which translations may be needed. The reason for having translations into 57 languages is to make sure that the census is as complete as possible.

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