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"Ci" and "Vi"

od NothingHere, 1 marca 2011

Wpisy: 17

Język: English

NothingHere (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 00:18:08

This may be a stupid question, but it is worth asking, I think.

I realized, while reading Gerda Malaperis(I know, I know) that the use of "Vi" as both singular and plural "You" can be pretty confusing at times.

I know that "Ci" exists as a singular second-person pronoun, and that it also indicates informality/familiarity. However, I've seen people say that it is very archaic and out-of-use. So I guess my question is: If I use "Ci" for either of those reasons(singular, or informality), will I sound like a fool, or will the majority of people get the point?

If you want an example, I guess you could look at it like this:

"Ĉu vi volas manĝi?" As far as I know, this sentence could refer to either one person, or everybody around you, depending on who you're with.

But if I don't want to ask everyone about whether or not they want to eat, would it be acceptable to ask: "Ĉu ci volas manĝi?"

Thanks.

T0dd (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 00:24:00

NothingHere:
But if I don't want to ask everyone about whether or not they want to eat, would it be acceptable to ask: "Ĉu ci volas manĝi?"

Thanks.
In contemporary Esperanto, using CI has about the same effect as using THOU and THEE in contemporary English.

3rdblade (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 00:27:37

As far as I know it's seldom used and if you use it, you might come across as a bit affected for that reason. But I also can't see any reason not to use it the way you described. Context will usually carry you through with regards to any problems about 'vi,' just as we seldom have a drama with using 'you' for both plural & singular in English. (Though I recall one famous boxer who solved the problem by saying 'youse' for the plural of you. 'I love youse all' was his saying.)

Meanwhile I think God is sometimes referred to as 'Ci', for the same reason 'Thou' is used in English.

erinja (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 02:16:32

I'd say that you'd sound like a fool to use it, just as if you used thee or thou in English.

Context helps and in case of doubt you can add an extra word.

Do you want to come with me? -- Singular or plural?

plural:
"Ĉu vi ĉiuj volas veni kun mi?"

dual:
"Ĉu vi du volas veni kun mi?"

singular:
"Johano, ĉu vi volas veni kun mi?"

adrideo (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 04:26:14

I've only met one person who uses "ci" as a way to differentiate singular and plural "you." After finding out that it was not, in fact, a typo (c and v are, after all, right next to each other on a QWERTY keyboard), I was irked by the familiarity.

Of course, since it isn't really used, there can't really be a consensus on exactly what it means. More so than being concerned if you'll sound foolish, you should be concerned if you'll be understood. I fear you'd be explaining yourself far more if you were to say "ci" than if, on occasion, context fails to clarify singular/non-singular vi.

sudanglo (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 09:14:12

In one of the Maigret translations I have read, the translator tried to capture the French distinction between 'tutoyer, and 'vousvoyer' by using 'ci'.

It was really really irritating, and surprisingly difficult to read.

It underlines the importance of getting your translations checked before you rush into print. What were the publishers thinking of!

rafano (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 09:52:39

What confuses me a bit here is that the thread starter has posted their question in English. I don't know whether English is the mother tongue of the thread starter, but it seems as they're familiar enough with it to know that not even present-day English makes any distinction between the singular ‘you' and the plural ‘you'. So, I would like to ask if the thread starter thinks that English is just as confusing as Esperanto on this point.

ceigered (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 10:37:55

All singular pronouns are a pain in the bum to use lango.gif.

That mentality is probably why we're seeing the favouring of "they" as a gender neutral pronoun (I now find myself using it as *the* 3rd person singular pronoun on the odd occasion even when he or she could have been used), why "thou" no longer exists in modern english and why even "us/we" is being used colloquially instead of "I/me" (probably more likely amongst colloquial speakers who like to think from the viewpoint of themselves and others combined, or with narcissists (so the whole human race rido.gif)). Now just for people to start using all 3 at once, then that's when stuff goes down the toilet for singular pronouns in English! MWAHAHA!

RE the topic, It's only in confusing conversations, which go back and forth between multiple people, which happen to be about multiple people in multiple grammatical persons, that the problem really arises. In spoken conversation it's not really bad if you come in half way.

"Vi ĉiuj" is the suitable pronoun combo when plurality matters. I think Zamenhoff's thinking was more or less "normally you look or direct attention at the person(s) you're talking to, so why bother with a singular/plural distinction". In literature it may be a pain but that's something to take up with the authors not the language okulumo.gif

Plus, how do we know "vi" isn't meant to be a singular pronoun and we're missing the plural version? We're only assuming "vi" is some sort of plural pronoun because it looks like "vous", "voi", "vos" and "vy" (Russky okulumo.gif) rido.gif

erinja (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 15:36:38

I am pretty sure that the Fundamento specifically says that "vi" is for both singular and plural.

I think the ci/vi issue is a fair question, even from an English speaker. Although English hasn't preserved a singular and plural you, and although in most cases I think it's easier not to distinguish, some people evidently do feel a need for it. I say "evidently" because there are dialects of English all over the world that have a plural you. When "you" (originally the plural form!) came to be used for both singular and plural, some people felt the need for a new plural form, so various dialects came up with forms like "y'all", "youse", "yuns", etc.

rafano (Pokaż profil) 1 marca 2011, 16:27:29

ceigered:All singular pronouns are a pain in the bum to use lango.gif.
We are not amused. okulumo.gif

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