לתוכן העניינים
להגיב

PMEG or PAG, which one is more authoritative?

של omid17, 4 במרץ 2011

הודעות: 73

שפה: English

Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 14:23:30

darkweasel:if you say that kiom is also for grade, you'd have:
Mi estas tiom forta, kiel vi.
but:
Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi estas malforta.
It seems to me that there is an implicit estas after the second correlative. So Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi is really Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi estas. Thus I don't see it as incorrect. Nothing wrong with Mi estas tiel forta, kiel vi, of course. After all, it is in the Fundamento. rido.gif

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 14:27:23

Miland:
darkweasel:if you say that kiom is also for grade, you'd have:
Mi estas tiom forta, kiel vi.
but:
Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi estas malforta.
It seems to me that there is an implicit estas after the second correlative. So Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi is really Mi estas tiom forta, kiom vi estas. Thus I don't see it as incorrect.
... and that's exactly what the PMEG page I linked to objects.

Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 15:01:16

darkweasel:the PMEG page I linked to objects.
Apparently PMEG doesn't like expressions like tia, kia. But there are many in the tekstaro going back 100 years - including Zamenhof's translation of Andersen! Even more of tiom, kiom - the latter can be found in the Fundamenta Krestomatio. So to call such usage maltradicia is putting it too strongly, in my view.

erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 15:44:44

EdRobertson:This break-up-into-dialects-bogeyman has been around for a while, and there's no evidence of it ever happening.
Right, the breaking up into dialects doesn't happen because Esperantists are culturally fairly rigid about maintaining grammatical rules.

sudanglo:With his example of 'skatolon da' contrasting with 'skatolon' he leaves the door open for uses where we wish to emphasize the quantity.
I would call it a grudging acceptance that this usage may have some kind of use.

However I personally would never ever use "da" in this manner. It's a preposition, and it doesn't make sense to use a preposition all alone, without a noun after it.

I wouldn't say, for example, "Mi lasos ĝin en". It would be "Mi lasos ĝin ene".

In a case where I wanted to emphasize that I want a quantity of a box, rather than an actual box, I would say "Mi volas kvanton de unu skatolo". Easy peasy! No weird and questionable grammar necessary. As Bertilo mentions in his text, you will seldom ever find "da" all alone in written text, and you never find it among good authors. Yet somehow they manage to express themselves perfectly well.

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 15:47:28

Miland:
darkweasel:the PMEG page I linked to objects.
Apparently PMEG doesn't like expressions like tia, kia.
... if they are not followed by an entire sentence.

Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 16:25:24

darkweasel:
Miland:
darkweasel:the PMEG page I linked to objects.
Apparently PMEG doesn't like expressions like tia, kia.
... if they are not followed by an entire sentence.
The phrase mi estas is a complete clause, and as I said earlier, the estas may be implicit.

But it is a rare usage. In the tekstaro I found la tuta arĝento kun la oro ne pezis tiom, kiom la kapo., and that's in the Fundamenta Krestomatio. In La Faraono there is Antaŭ la dioj, mia princo, faraono kaj pastro valoras tiom, kiom sklavo. In Vespero ruĝa anoncas ventegon we have Estis tiu ĉi malbenita i-frazo: Ne iĝi tia, kia li!

Borderline examples: in La mortula ŝipo there is li venis el tute alia regiono, ĉar tiom, kiom tiu Vilhelmo, li ne kapablas labori.. The clause itself is separated from Vilhelmo. In Vivo vokas we have Ĝi estas finita tie, kie mi estis. The latter could treat estis as implicit.

sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 8 במרץ 2011, 21:28:42

An interesting example of a kiom/kiel contrast might be:-

Kiom mi scias, li ne havas edzinon - as far as I know he isn't married.

Kiel vi bone scias, li ne estas la plej fidinda laboranto - as you well know, he isn't the most reliable worker.

feliz123 (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במרץ 2011, 04:27:34

I am not really willing to think hard now, but...

Here there is a sort of usage of tiom/kiom.

"Tiom da pecoj kiom estas"

Is this in any way relevant (at least for lernu-teamanoj to remember what is being taught)?

darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במרץ 2011, 06:03:41

feliz123:I am not really willing to think hard now, but...

Here there is a sort of usage of tiom/kiom.

"Tiom da pecoj kiom estas"

Is this in any way relevant (at least for lernu-teamanoj to remember what is being taught)?
No, that's about quantity, not grade (and kiom is also followed by an entire clause), so it is not really relevant to this discussion - nobody had any doubts about such use.

johmue (הצגת פרופיל) 9 במרץ 2011, 06:32:34

sudanglo:With his example of 'skatolon da' contrasting with 'skatolon' he leaves the door open for uses where we wish to emphasize the quantity.
But there are ways to express this more in the spirit of Esperanto rather than by naciism:

For example: "Mi bezonas keksojn por miaj infanoj. Suficxas skatolpleno."

לראש הדף