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Predicate infinitives

von Roberto12, 18. März 2011

Beiträge: 51

Sprache: English

danielcg (Profil anzeigen) 19. März 2011 19:23:09

Hi, Erinja.

Would it not be also correct to say "mi volas igi la bovinon manĝi"?

Thanks in advance for your opinion.

Daniel

erinja:The only correct version that you mentioned was "mi volas ke la bovino manĝu" ("manĝas" would be wrong here; we are expressing a desire or wish that the cow eat; we are not making a definitive statement that the cow IS eating, or that it does generally eat, as the -as ending indicates)

danielcg (Profil anzeigen) 19. März 2011 19:25:32

Now that I've written it, my version seems to imply that one wants to force the cow to eat, while yours does not distinguish whether the cow will eat by force or willingly. So perhaps my proposal is only valid within some context.

Anyway, I'd like to read your opinion. I enjoy your posts and learn much from them.

Regards,

Daniel

danielcg:Hi, Erinja.

Would it not be also correct to say "mi volas igi la bovinon manĝi"?

Thanks in advance for your opinion.

Daniel

erinja:The only correct version that you mentioned was "mi volas ke la bovino manĝu" ("manĝas" would be wrong here; we are expressing a desire or wish that the cow eat; we are not making a definitive statement that the cow IS eating, or that it does generally eat, as the -as ending indicates)

erinja (Profil anzeigen) 19. März 2011 19:30:43

danielcg:Now that I've written it, my version seems to imply that one wants to force the cow to eat, while yours does not distinguish whether the cow will eat by force or willingly. So perhaps my proposal is only valid within some context.
Right, your version would be 'cause the cow to eat'. I would have to take some kind of action to encourage the cow to eat. It wouldn't necessarily be forcing the cow but it could be encouraging the cow etc.

"mi volas ke la bovino manĝu" is totally neutral. You want the cow to eat but you aren't necessarily doing anything to make that happen.

sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 19. März 2011 23:15:48

Robert, I can't understand your argument about type (1) sentences, but the fact is that 'mi vidis la knabon kuri' is normal Esperanto.

However, 'mi volis la knabon kuri' is not, though it appears to be structurally the same on the surface.

This is Esperanto 101 - as the Americans say.

You can immediately see that these are two different types of sentences by deleting the 'kuri'.

ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 05:51:44

I think more important is deleting the "la knabon".

Mi volas kuri
Mi vidas kuri.

Whether "mi vidas kuri" makes any sense is beyond me though. I'd say it doesn't but this might be one of those infernal usage things lango.gif

Miland (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 09:27:16

ceigered:Whether "mi vidas kuri" makes any sense is beyond me..
Kuri can't be used as flexibly as "running" can in English.
If you are talking about watching the Olympics it might be Mi vidas kuradon. If you mean that you watch something while you are running, that could be Kurante, mi vidas ion. "I watch something (while it is) running" would be Mi vidas ion (esti, dum ĝi estas) kuranta, while "I watch something (that is) running" would be Mi vidas ion kurantan. Phew! okulumo.gif

ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 09:53:21

That is what I suspected - does that apply to "Mi vidas la knabon kuri" though? I'd imagine not so but once again I stress that my Esperanto is not entirely influenced by current usage, and I guess if it is current usage then, well, meh.

Miland (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 10:18:26

ceigered:That is what I suspected - does that apply to "Mi vidas la knabon kuri" though? ..
Now you mention it, PMEG ("I-verbo") says: Perverba priskribo de objekto ankaŭ povas esti I-verbo [I translate: "an object can be described by means of an infinitive verb"]: La finiĝado de la tago igis ilin rapidi. = La finiĝado igis [= instigis], ke ili rapidu..

So it might work, if the context made the meaning clear. You might find it worthwhole to do a little digging in the tekstaro for examples.

Para 846 of M.C. Butler's Step by Step also indicates the legitimacy of this use (in the context of his treatment of si). I quote, using his fonts:

"An INFINITIVE (-i) is regarded as a verb, forming a new sentence with its own subject.
Petro petis Markon viziti (= ke li vizitu) lian (P's) domon kun sia (M's) edzino. Josefo ordonis al siaj servistoj balzami (= ke ili balzamu) lian patron, Joseph ordered his servant to embalm his father (sian would mean their father)."

sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 10:51:27

Let us not get too complicated here.

The pattern Subject X-as Object Z-i works with some verbs, not with others. And you are unlikely to have any difficulty in learning correct usage.

In Petro petis Markon viziti lian domon, if we delete everything after the object (Markon) we don't substantially change the meaning. This gives us Petro petis Markon (the nature of the request being not specified).

BUT if we take the non-sentence Petro volis la bovinon manĝi and we delete manĝi we get Petro volis la bovinon - a completely different idea.

I am not saying that this test will work in all cases, but it is certainly applicable in the majority of cases.

It is very clear with verbs of perception. Li vidis la knabon (kuri), Li aŭdis la knabon (krii).

It is equally clear in the case of 'peti' and 'ordoni al'

Miland, I notice that your lingvosento about object X-anta and object X-antan is the same as mine (and PMEG) and in disagreement with Miner.

Miland (Profil anzeigen) 20. März 2011 11:49:31

While I don't recall PMEG or Butler saying that the pattern Subject X-as Object Z-i is definitely wrong in specified cases, I've removed the example Petro volis la bovinon manĝi from my message, as it is at least ambiguous. PAG's reason (p 159, section 116(d)) why the pattern is best avoided in favour of an imperative (sub-para (d), 3rd line has devus, not devas) is, if I interpret them correctly, that voli is a subjective word, more bound up with the subject than a simple action.

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