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'Kion' or 'Kiojn'?

от bartlett22183, 28 марта 2011 г.

Сообщений: 19

Язык: English

ceigered (Показать профиль) 28 марта 2011 г., 14:50:34

erinja:
gyrus:"Ĉu vi ŝatas la kokinojn?"
"La kiojn?"
I would still say "La kion?" in that case.
Normally I'd just go "kio?" rido.gif.

But I think it makes sense - although perhaps it could be classified as being something close to "acceptable slang", or something depending on the speaker. It's clearly not standard esperanto, but it's using elements of standard esperanto in a relatively understandable way to inform the speaker perhaps in an impatient, jestful or informal way that they heard everything but the actual radical itself. Although I believe in some formal situations that might be rude. In fact, I suspect "(La) kio(n)?" might be rude as well for some, but can't please everyone!

erinja (Показать профиль) 28 марта 2011 г., 15:36:30

If you heard part of what they said, though, you might want to acknowledge that, so they don't have to repeat the whole thing. I do it all the time, with both English and Esperanto.

Ĉu vi jam pretigis la ||||?
Ĉu mi jam pretigis la kion?
La valizon.
Ha, la valizon. Jes, mi pretigis ĝin.

bartlett22183 (Показать профиль) 28 марта 2011 г., 16:39:38

erinja:BTW "propra" means "own". As in "Portu vian propran libron", bring your own book. Propra is a false friend of the English word "proper". Think of "proprietary" as your cognate, not "proper".

It should be "Mi ne konas la ĝustan esperantan vorton" (or "vorton esperantan" if you prefer that order for some reason)
Thanks to all for the replies. Yes, false friends are the bane of language students many times. I have read learners use English 'actual' as if it were French 'actuel. Cognates, yes, but quite different in meaning.

As for 'kio'/'kioj', I was just going in parallel with 'kiu'/'kiuj', as that seemed logical to me.

Incidentally, does anyone know of a good list of modern technological / computer terms in Esperanto?

darkweasel (Показать профиль) 28 марта 2011 г., 16:41:13

bartlett22183:Yes, false friends are the bane of language students many times. I have read learners use English 'actual' as if it were French 'actuel. Cognates, yes, but quite different in meaning.
inb4 German speakers wanting to become a hamburger.
(German bekommen = to receive)
bartlett22183:
Incidentally, does anyone know of a good list of modern technological / computer terms in Esperanto?
Komputeko

bartlett22183 (Показать профиль) 28 марта 2011 г., 21:03:20

darkweasel:
bartlett22183:
Incidentally, does anyone know of a good list of modern technological / computer terms in Esperanto?
Komputeko
Thanks very much. That looks like a good resource, although I did not see a way (maybe I missed it) to download a single file as such. Except for English (and even sometimes then), I tend to do my composing offline with a text editor and then upload or send it.

Paŭlo

ceigered (Показать профиль) 29 марта 2011 г., 3:42:02

erinja:If you heard part of what they said, though, you might want to acknowledge that, so they don't have to repeat the whole thing. I do it all the time, with both English and Esperanto.

Ĉu vi jam pretigis la ||||?
Ĉu mi jam pretigis la kion?
La valizon.
Ha, la valizon. Jes, mi pretigis ĝin.
Yeah but each to his own? I know I can't be stuffed repeating the whole question to say someone I know well, or even people I don't know well (I'd just say "sorry?/hm?" for a polite version of "what?"). I only repeat whole questions to confirm that I go the rest of the question right, and if I "know" I've got it right minus one phrase, I'll isolate that phrase and some surrounding words for context.

patrik (Показать профиль) 30 марта 2011 г., 14:09:11

I would like to cite this example from Sergio Pokrovskij to show a case where "kioj" can be useful.
— Kioj estas Petro, Maria kaj Paŭlo? — Ili estas patro, patrino kaj filo.
— Kio estas Petro, Maria kaj Paŭlo? — Ili estas familio.

ceigered (Показать профиль) 30 марта 2011 г., 14:41:56

I would have said that myself but nowadays I'm under the impression, not knowing if it's right or not, that Kiu should be used there instead since we know what "kiu" refers to (the people mentioned).

Normally when I can get around such complex things I just use "kiu" when referring to something already referred to in the same sentence or directly modifying the noun, and kio elsewhere.

tommjames (Показать профиль) 30 марта 2011 г., 14:50:08

patrik:I would like to cite this example from Sergio Pokrovskij to show a case where "kioj" can be useful.
— Kioj estas Petro, Maria kaj Paŭlo? — Ili estas patro, patrino kaj filo.
— Kio estas Petro, Maria kaj Paŭlo? — Ili estas familio.
Well logical, yes. But assuming we're not dealing with a rhetorical question, I think for "kioj" to be useful here would require your listener to actually understand that you're enquiring about the members of the group individually, rather than as a collective. Since "kioj" is almost never used in the language I think in many cases people would just miss that, or assume you made an error or something.

If I wanted to make this distinction I think I would just use other words, like "individue", "kolektive" or whatever works.

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