Mesaĝoj: 15
Lingvo: English
ki4jgt (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-31 08:34:32
What were the requirements of citizenship?
Is it still considered a nation in exile?
since it did posses the requirements of a nation, has it officially been recorded?
Leke (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-31 15:27:41
Soon afterwards the Italian Navy used explosives to destroy the facility, an act later portrayed on postage stamps issued by Rosa's "Government in exile".
Esperantoists really have a bad history with governments.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-31 15:48:29
I would say that no one considered Rose Island to be a nation except the people who created it. I don't think that the people who started it even spoke Esperanto well, they just chose it because it's international. Some of the Esperanto that I saw in their texts looks a bit strange to me.
Rose Island is relatively unambiguous to me. It isn't an independent country, and never was. The true ambiguity comes in cases where you have a region of land, of actual territory (not just a platform in the sea) that declares itself to be a nation, and some other countries recognize it, and others do not. Then the nation (or "not a nation") is stuck in a weird twilight of partial recognition. Can they participate in the Olympics, can they have a seat in the UN? It's a complicated topic that doesn't really relate to Esperanto and is outside the scope of this forum.
Therefore when talking about this topic, it's important not to put some place like Rose Island (a tiny platform never recognized by anyone but its creators) in the same category as the People's Republic of China (not recognized as being "the real China" by every country in the world, though it is recognized by most countries).
You can read more than you ever wanted to know on these topics at Wikipedia articles on microstates (very small countries that are, however, recognized by other countries), states with limited recognition (countries that have been recognized as independent by some countries but not by all) and micronations (very small "countries" that are recognized generally by no one other than themselves; Rose Island falls into this category, and Sealand is the best-known examples). Hutt Island Principality is the other one that comes up on occasion in this forum, because they also declared Esperanto an official language.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-01 00:25:58
Anyway, it's particularly hard with micronations to be able to tell if it's A) someone trying to dodge tax but otherwise using another nation as if it's their own, B) someone trying to be a loner, C) someone actually genuinely trying to create a off-shore utopia with all the bells and whistles of a perfect democratic community orientated state, or D), someone trying to rip people off.
Unfortunately for micronations, most of their founders seem to have a fetish for not paying taxes to their original country, which is why most get shut down or are not well liked. Micronation builders, for heaven's sake, if you're gonna try and build some sea-steader's paradise nation or something like that, at least for the first 50 years stay part of your original nation and build up a population and supporter base within all countries around you that might want to invade you (in regards to placement, don't pick a spot which could make your nation strategically valuable to would-be invaders), THEN stop paying taxes and ignoring your original country's law
3rdblade (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-01 05:22:45
Kiam mi havis ĉirkaŭ 7 jaroj, mi deklaris ke mia dormĉambro estu suverena lando. Poste, kiel plenkreskulo, mi lernis ke tiu fenomeno ne estas tre malordinara.
Ah, childhood. Now, if you'd like to read about a far more interesting micronation, I heartily suggest Aaron McGruder (et. al.)'s Birth of a Nation
ki4jgt (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-01 11:59:40
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-02 10:21:26
That said, what would have originally been classified as nations or empires are quite abundant nowadays - take for instance the European Union. At the same time, in many countries like the US and Australia, states are so powerful that they might as well be a stand in for nations of old which used to be more like administrative regions for empires.
(I personally am not a nationalist or anything like that. I think the idea of nations is basically just a way to create a sense of patriotism within a people, a propaganda tool to make a population feel different from other nationalities. I'd rather the term "nation" shift towards something more generic and perhaps inclusive of micronations, but it unfortunately has too much of a stigma associated with old world values.)
ki4jgt (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-02 19:49:55
ceigered:Well, it ultimately depends - the term "nation" is a title given on a whimsy to a governed, organised and unified area which has a population that identifies with itself. Strictly speaking micronations might fulfil such but "nations" are generally old-world categorisations of the world around them - that is, new nations are expected to be developments of old nations, and have an impact somehow, where as a micronation is normally so obscure almost no one really cares - they are without impact, they are practically intangible.I'm all for a nation being a nation (Whether old or new) There can be world peace, but only if EVERY nation puts away their weapons at the same time. (Never gonna happen - Except in one world order) So districts and territories are needed to defend against the other territories, it's a bit primal, but I would be suspicious of any attempt to achieve world peace. (With humanity, it is impossible - We fight way too much!)
That said, what would have originally been classified as nations or empires are quite abundant nowadays - take for instance the European Union. At the same time, in many countries like the US and Australia, states are so powerful that they might as well be a stand in for nations of old which used to be more like administrative regions for empires.
(I personally am not a nationalist or anything like that. I think the idea of nations is basically just a way to create a sense of patriotism within a people, a propaganda tool to make a population feel different from other nationalities. I'd rather the term "nation" shift towards something more generic and perhaps inclusive of micronations, but it unfortunately has too much of a stigma associated with old world values.)
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-02 20:34:53
ki4jgt:I would be suspicious of any attempt to achieve world peace. (With humanity, it is impossible - We fight way too much!)People may well have said that to Zamenhof. It would explain his speech to the second World Congress at Geneva in 1906. See the 6th para beginning Ni ne estas tiel naivaj...
ki4jgt (Montri la profilon) 2011-aprilo-02 22:09:10
But Utopian societies can never exist. They require that all citizens process the same ideas. Anyone with alternate ideas from the norm, is either imprisoned or killed.