ceigered:I understand what sort of cases you could have turn and bear used in comparison to each other, but I don't see why "bear" is necessary when you can tell them to stay on the road - otherwise it's like the tomtom's telling the driver everything to do .

Sometimes, as with a forking road, it's unclear what "stay on the road" means. For example, if you're following Route 1 (or whatever), it may be that what looks like the "main" road goes straight, but the actual numbered Route goes off to the right. "Stay on the road" would be confusing if it looks like "the road" is the way straight ahead, but the named or numbered road goes a different way.

T0dd:

ceigered:I understand what sort of cases you could have turn and bear used in comparison to each other, but I don't see why "bear" is necessary when you can tell them to stay on the road - otherwise it's like the tomtom's telling the driver everything to do .

Sometimes, as with a forking road, it's unclear what "stay on the road" means. For example, if you're following Route 1 (or whatever), it may be that what looks like the "main" road goes straight, but the actual numbered Route goes off to the right. "Stay on the road" would be confusing if it looks like "the road" is the way straight ahead, but the named or numbered road goes a different way.

I was thinking "well, if it's a forked road you can still just say turn left/right", but I guess roads are more complicated anywhere other than South Australia with all your 10-point intersections

(As you can see here, everything where I live is basically square, not too many 'exciting' roads)

T0dd:

ceigered:I understand what sort of cases you could have turn and bear used in comparison to each other, but I don't see why "bear" is necessary when you can tell them to stay on the road - otherwise it's like the tomtom's telling the driver everything to do .

Sometimes, as with a forking road, it's unclear what "stay on the road" means. For example, if you're following Route 1 (or whatever), it may be that what looks like the "main" road goes straight, but the actual numbered Route goes off to the right. "Stay on the road" would be confusing if it looks like "the road" is the way straight ahead, but the named or numbered road goes a different way.

I'm still thinking that 'bear right' could be expressed as 'stiri dekstren' and 'turn right' as 'turniĝi dekstren'

I agree Todd, there is no specific angle at which ĝirado become turniĝado (though taking a differently numbered road is an clear change).

Often, in a motorway situation it can require quite a detour if you end up on the wrong ŝoseo.

Therefore an instruction that is quite clear and not easily misunderstood is a good idea.

I don't know where this idea that ĝirado is necessarily sharp comes from. The obvious thing would be to go back to the languages that have a cognate form and which the Esperanto borrowed the root from and see if the implication is there.

If in those languages the veturila signifo is a metaphorical extension of the transpaga signifo and the general sense is simply redirect, then I don't see how sharpness of turn should have arisen.

Of course in the case of a harpingla girejo it's almost 180 degrees. But then you can also turn sharp right.

Perhaps for the 1970 PIV Waringhien found a use in the literature where the bend was sharp, and generalised.

Yes, NJ I think stiru dekstren may well serve for bear right.

But I rather like 'ĝiri' with its altering heading/deviating from straight connotations.

And the gentle alteration in direction which comes in a yachting situation (tacking) seems to me like following a gentle curve in a road.

sudanglo:
I don't know where this idea that ĝirado is necessarily sharp comes from. The obvious thing would be to go back to the languages that have a cognate form and which the Esperanto borrowed the root from and see if the implication is there.

If in those languages the veturila signifo is a metaphorical extension of the transpaga signifo and the general sense is simply redirect, then I don't see how sharpness of turn should have arisen.

Nor do I. In Italian and Spanish, as far as I can make out, the cognate verb simply means "turn". And it appears that in contemporary Esperanto it also means "turn", which makes it no better than "turniĝi" for this, or any other, purpose. I'm all for the addition of words that make new and useful distinctions possible, but ĝiri appears not to do this, and has the added disadvantage of colliding with the financial term. As far as I'm concerned, the metaphorical connection between the two concepts is too tenuous to be useful. To be sure, everything is "like" everything else in some respect or other, but the idea that changing the direction of a car or motorcycle is like moving money between accounts is fanciful, to say the least.

Perhaps for the 1970 PIV Waringhien found a use in the literature where the bend was sharp, and generalised.

That's very possible.

In the "Ballpoint pen" thread, someone mentioned that biro has the meaning of nautical bearing. Perhaps it could be pressed into service as a verb?

T0dd:In the "Ballpoint pen" thread, someone mentioned that biro has the meaning of nautical bearing. Perhaps it could be pressed into service as a verb?

"Birumu maldekstren"? or even "Biru maldekstren"?

It works for me, semantically (though I wouldn't put it into a satnav system until it's in very wide use in spoken Esperanto; for satnav purposes, I would prefer to be extremely conservative with use of language, to avoid misunderstandings)

Biri is defined in NPIV with a technical (trignometric) definition on taking a bearing. But I would have no problem with biru maldekstren in instructions for driving.

Probably though stiri is a better known word.

I think that there are some contexts in which ĝiri might be preferred. I think blinda ĝirejo would work well as a road sign and seems nicer than blinda turniĝo.

Someone should do the whole highway code in Esperanto and publish it. Then we wouldn't need to discuss such problems at length, and we would have ready answers to many common driving expressions (inc road signs).

Where there is no good reason to change, expressions from NPIV and the Esperanta Bildvortaro should be conserved for the sake of continuity in the language (one of the arguments for using ĝirejo - found in both)

By the way on words with close meanings, we already have aleo, bulvardo and avenuo. So why all the fuss about ĝiri.

sudanglo:By the way on words with close meanings, we already have aleo, bulvardo and avenuo. So why all the fuss about ĝiri.

Because while they might all be redundant, at least "aleo" doesn't also mean "ally", "bulvardo" doesn't also mean "popsicle stick" and "avenuo" doesn't mean "an arbitrary collapse of the right lung while an organism is hanging upside down from a precariously placed clothesline", where as, on the other hand, ĝiri, while being in company of "turni/stiri/etc", also happens to have the meaning "place a signature on the backside of a bill/check, by which one cedes it and its value to a cited person" as it's primary definition, which is rather removed from any motoring context, and could be better thought as "turn over" than "steer a vehicle in a direction consistent with the official continuation of the road the motorist is currently driving on".

Basically, it's not any one fault of "ĝiri" that makes some of us deem it unsuitable, but rather, it's the sum of all the faults put together. Having better alternatives makes ĝiri 35% undesirable, and having conflicting definitions makes ĝiri another 35% undesirable, so in the end it's 70% undesirable.

ceigered:Basically, it's not any one fault of "ĝiri" that makes some of us deem it unsuitable, but rather, it's the sum of all the faults put together. Having better alternatives makes ĝiri 35% undesirable, and having conflicting definitions makes ĝiri another 35% undesirable, so in the end it's 70% undesirable.

Ok... Numbers don't lie... If you put it that way, it has to be true...

(Just joking... Speaking seriously, I do agree with you... Having a different main meaning is already bad, but if we also have other alternatives, then why use this one).

Amike,

Daniel.