Messaggi: 116
Lingua: English
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 16:28:30
erinja:I am told that PIV doesn't even mark "dubious" words as being dubious, but I don't own a copy so I can't check.[perhaps someone could look up estiel to see if it's marked in any way as being 'evitinda'].PIV 2005 uses the abbreviation evi for evitinda. Aliel and alies are marked thus.
Estiel is in PIV 2005, but is not marked as dubious. Wells includes it, and marks it as dubious, while PMEG mentions it as an unsuccessful experimental neologismo.
Chainy (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 16:47:52
Erinja certainly seems slightly over enthusiastic in her dismissal of NPIV, particularly as she doesn't have one! Come on, it's not that bad!
Deary me, let's not just say it's cr@p! I don't want to start a huge debate about dictionaries! But, no single dictionary really stands out in terms of quality, but NPIV is surely the most comprehensive EO-EO dictionary out there. Yes, everyone knows there should be improvements, and hopefully this will happen over time. Meanwhile, the best bet is comparing several dictionaries...
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 17:48:30
Chainy:Erinja certainly seems slightly over enthusiastic in her dismissal of NPIV, particularly as she doesn't have one! Come on, it's not that bad!Why would I spend more than a hundred US dollars to buy one, if I don't like it very much?
My view of PIV is more nuanced than you seem to suppose. PIV is indeed extremely comprehensive. Exceedingly comprehensive. Comprehensive to a fault, and not always entirely open about marking things properly.
I think that Esperanto dictionaries need to be careful about how they write about unusual words, because there are a lot of credulous beginners who will look in a dictionary and use a certain word just because it's there. An English speaker is unlikely to start using a random word they find in a dictionary, but a beginning Esperantist just might. Therefore I think that reputable Esperanto dictionaries have a duty to mark words as being unusual or not recommended, especially when the definitions given are totally opposed to what's written in the official dictionary of the Academy.
People who don't know any better would find a word in PIV and suppose that the definition is correct, because it's printed in a very expensive book. Believing something because it's written in PIV is like believing something written in Wikipedia. It's usually right, but it has weird, crazy, wrong stuff in it too. PIV isn't the Academy, and PIV has no special claim on rightness over other dictionaries.
If I wanted the definition of a very unusual word, I would go to PIV. Plants, animals, science terms, words that are too specialized to make it into a smaller dictionary. But if I wanted a definition of a "normal" word, I would believe other dictionaries before I would believe PIV.
Chainy (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 18:03:25
erinja:You could take a sneaky look at the pdf online!
Why would I spend more than a hundred US dollars to buy one, if I don't like it very much?
Anyway, I'm glad your opinion on NPIV is nuanced. 
NJ Esperantist (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 18:27:12
sudanglo:NJ, is there a way of generating a sound file of the other language terms? We have enough multilingual talent in the forum to transcribe this to text form.Not easily, actually not easily at all. I can't do anything like a file 'dump' to get all terms at once. I'd have to set it to a French voice and set a course for somewhere and have it navigate as a demo (like it's actually driving around.) Mostly you'd get 'turn right/left type commands.
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 20:31:56
erinja:Believing something because it's written in PIV is like believing something written in Wikipedia... PIV isn't the Academy, and PIV has no special claim on rightness over other dictionaries.Wikipedia is the product of anyone who wishes to write in it. PIV is edited by Akademianoj. It therefore has an authority above other dictionaries without this link, such as ReVo. Only dictionaries by Akademianoj such as Butler and Wells can claim a comparable authority. Marjorie Boulton has written: "our best dictionary entirely in Esperanto has 1264 pages." Only PIV as revised by Akademiano Goninaz fits that description.
That is not to say that PIV 2005 cannot err. Wells pointed out one or two mistakes in his talk to the recent BK. But it is a generally reliable source of information, even if neologismoj might be found in it that many people might prefer not to use.
darkweasel (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 20:41:00
3. ĝis la tempo kiam aŭtoritata centra institucio
decidos pligrandigi (neniam ŝanĝi!) la
ĝisnunan fundamenton per oficialigo de novaj vortoj aŭ
reguloj, ĉio bona, kio ne troviĝas en la
« Fundamento de Esperanto », devas esti rigardata ne kiel
deviga, sed nur kiel rekomendata.
I think that from these words it should be clear that nothing outside of the Fundamento and the official Akademio decisions must necessarily be followed.
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 21:43:15
d indossieren; e endosar; f endosser; n endosseren; p endossar; s endossera.
Using ĝiri in this sense is an Italismo.
NPIV marks this as archaic and refers you to endosi.
I could also refer you to the Komerca-Ekonomika Vortaro pub. Kluwer-Harrap 1974
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 22:25:12
Finvenkistoj believe that it is important that Esperanto should be ready for any use. This will necessarily involve determining some terms before they are in common usage.
Carefully compiled dictionaries like NPIV and the Esperanta Bildvortaro and specialised dictionaries, like the Kluwer-Harrap one I referred to previously, have an important role to play in this process, which is merely a continuation of the invention that was intitiated by Zamenhof.
There are many fields where the usage of Esperanto is minimal. And we can't wait for usage (which may or may not arise from judicious research) - at least that would be the Finvenkista point of view.
A Raŭmisto, of course, will naturally take a more inward looking view of the language and may find some terms 'dubious' on the basis that they are normally used in the Esperanto community.
Even in cases where there there is an established usage already, a neologismo may enhance the language.
No growth in the terms available to the language will in any way diminish the ease with which a basic knowledge of Esperanto can be acquired (in comparison with the national languages).
It has always been false to assert that Esperanto is easy at the more advanced level - the sort of command that an educated speaker has of his mother tongue.
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 20 aprile 2011 22:44:32
A ĝirlampo must be an indicator light that tells me that my wire transfer has gone through.Should such things exist, which I very much doubt, then context will make it clear that you are referring to that and not what you will find on a car.
If one motorist were to run into the back of another and then offer to pay for a replacement of the other motorist's damaged ĝirlampo, I cannot imagine that any confusion would arise.
Nor if I saw a road sign warning of a danĝera ĝirejo, would I for one moment suppose that this warned me of a dubious money transfer shop.
Let's not be ridiculous here.