Hozzászólások: 34
Nyelv: English
ceigered (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 15:00:11
geo63:Who is going to learn all that stuff? Who has so much time to spend on English. I use this language occasionally, I am not fluent and I do not intend to.Well, that's why I guess an important part about English is you have to look out for context, and approach the sentence holistically unlike other languages.
Which is funny politically - English, with every word working together, is sort of communist, while Russian with its heavy inflection giving a single word great individual power, is sort of capitalist, but government wise it worked the other way around
Anyway, the idea is that one who's had a native level of experience can assume we're talking about an average peace of string (ŝnuro or whatever it is), rather than a musical string (kordo or whatever that is), because of the lack of context. One can also assume that the average English speaker is too uncultured and unintelligent to even know an ounce about anything musically related, and so we wouldn't bother with such a niche idiom, but that's the less preferable way of thinking about it laŭ mi
(and probably incorrect given how big music departments are in Australian private schools)(BTW, you poles are lucking with your "sznur" word
) geo63 (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 15:53:22
ceigered:(BTW, you poles are lucking with your "sznur" wordIn Polish different things are described by different words, not just one with many meanings, so for us, Poles, English is rather not logical and hard to understand without many thousands of hours for practice. And not all of foreigners can afford that much for it, especially when the language is not essential for their living.
Look:
1. a thin length of cord, twine, fibre, or similar material used for tying, hanging, binding, etc. (Polish: LINA, SZNUR, SZNUREK)
2. a group of objects threaded on a single strand: a string of beads. (Polish: ŁAŃCUSZEK)
3. a series or succession of things, events, acts, utterances, etc.: a string of oaths. (Polish: CIĄG, ŁAŃCUCH, SEKWENCJA...)
4. a number, chain, or group of similar things, animals, etc., owned by or associated with one person or body: a string of girlfriends. (Polish: ZBIÓR, GRUPA)
5. a tough fibre or cord in a plant: the string of an orange; the string of a bean. (Polish: WŁÓKNO, ŻYŁKA, ŻYŁA...)
6. Music. a tightly stretched wire, cord, etc., found on stringed instruments, such as the violin, guitar, and piano. (Polish: STRUNA)
7. short for bowstring. (Polish: CIĘCIWA)
8. Architect. short for string course or stringer (sense 1). (?)
9. Maths, linguistics. a sequence of symbols or words. (Polish: SZEREG)
10. Linguistics. a linear sequence, such as a sentence as it is spoken. (Polish: CIĄG)
11. Physics. a one-dimensional entity postulated to be a fundamental component of matter in some theories of particle physics. See also cosmic string. (Polish: STRUNA)
12. Billiards. another word for lag1 (sense 6). (?)
13. a group of characters that can be treated as a unit by a computer program. (Polish: ŁAŃCUCH)
14. (pl.; usually preceded by the)
a. violins, violas, cellos, and double basses collectively. (Polish: INSTRUMENTY STRUNOWE)
b. the section of a symphony orchestra constituted by such instruments. (Polish: SMYCZKI ?)
... (got bored)
ceigered (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 16:49:13
I think to some extent it's also mind over matter caused by the way English is taught, which is generally not comprehensive enough from what I've heard.
For example, you say how it is not logical and hard to understand, but that sounds funny to my ears because to me, the same feature is what makes English so easy - you can "abuse" the use of words heaps and not get in trouble for it. If I come across a new word I've never heard of before, I only need to know its basic meaning, and I can immediately use it in a variety of ways without needing to be given many rules. I guess it's particularly jarring if one isn't taught that and is given impression that English is as rigid as some continental European languages.
That said, I think it creates some problems for English speakers learning other languages, since we don't take things as literally and can't pinpoint how a word should be translated as easily, that is if you've got a dictionary that only gives you one word definitions which don't really cover all the specific nuances of a word. So Geo63, you can say you've had an experience as a "native" speaker of English
Interestingly though, it seems to be a trend that, while English may or may not be ahead in, covers most of Western Europe, but also has parallels in Eastern Asia. Maybe languages spoken by people "sitting on the edge of the world" are flexible like that, or need to be so when they inevitably get "pushed off" they can cope with whatever 'alien' worlds they drift off to.
For example, you say how it is not logical and hard to understand, but that sounds funny to my ears because to me, the same feature is what makes English so easy - you can "abuse" the use of words heaps and not get in trouble for it. If I come across a new word I've never heard of before, I only need to know its basic meaning, and I can immediately use it in a variety of ways without needing to be given many rules. I guess it's particularly jarring if one isn't taught that and is given impression that English is as rigid as some continental European languages.
That said, I think it creates some problems for English speakers learning other languages, since we don't take things as literally and can't pinpoint how a word should be translated as easily, that is if you've got a dictionary that only gives you one word definitions which don't really cover all the specific nuances of a word. So Geo63, you can say you've had an experience as a "native" speaker of English
Interestingly though, it seems to be a trend that, while English may or may not be ahead in, covers most of Western Europe, but also has parallels in Eastern Asia. Maybe languages spoken by people "sitting on the edge of the world" are flexible like that, or need to be so when they inevitably get "pushed off" they can cope with whatever 'alien' worlds they drift off to.
geo63 (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 17:02:28
Some joke:
Second World War, England, RAF airfield, new Polish pilots have just arrived. One Pole is walking around and meets an English officer:
English officer: - Polish?
This word means in Polish: "Do you smoke?"
Pole: Pole (Yes, I smoke)
English officer produces a pack of cigarettes: Smoke? (in Polish it means: have one?)
Pole: A cmoknę sobie. Gdzieś ty się tak piorunie nauczył mówić po polsku:
(Yes, I'll take one. Where have you learnt to speak Polish that good).
Another one:
Polish turist tries to speak English to an Englishman. That one listenes for a while and then he talks to his friend: You know, Polish is very similar to English.
Second World War, England, RAF airfield, new Polish pilots have just arrived. One Pole is walking around and meets an English officer:
English officer: - Polish?
This word means in Polish: "Do you smoke?"
Pole: Pole (Yes, I smoke)
English officer produces a pack of cigarettes: Smoke? (in Polish it means: have one?)
Pole: A cmoknę sobie. Gdzieś ty się tak piorunie nauczył mówić po polsku:
(Yes, I'll take one. Where have you learnt to speak Polish that good).
Another one:
Polish turist tries to speak English to an Englishman. That one listenes for a while and then he talks to his friend: You know, Polish is very similar to English.
ceigered (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 17:13:41
That all said, looking at half those definitions, they certainly aren't something that would normally be in the fore front of the mind, and some definitions double up but as a result make the definition more confusing than it should be.
The basic definition would better be:
- "1. a thin length of cord, twine, fibre, or similar materialused for tying, hanging, binding, etc. (Polish: LINA, SZNUR, SZNUREK)"
and "series, succession or sequence of things or of the same thing in a linear fashion".
With those two definitions combined you have practically everything there except for:
- "12. Billiards. another word for lag1 (sense 6). (?)" (dunno what it means)
- "8. Architect. short for string course or stringer (sense 1). (?)" (I don't know it either)
For those following the "physical-string/sequence" trend, all you then have to do is think about it adjectivally (does this look like a string when visualised/put into a diagram?), then nominally (e.g. "the strings sound out of tune today" referring to "instrumenty strunowe"), then verbally (has this action got anything to do with strings being the subject, object or indirect object?).
And that's all I can really think of as how the thought patterns work. Maybe I should work on it later to produce something a little more useful....
The basic definition would better be:
- "1. a thin length of cord, twine, fibre, or similar material
and "series, succession or sequence of things or of the same thing in a linear fashion".
With those two definitions combined you have practically everything there except for:
- "12. Billiards. another word for lag1 (sense 6). (?)" (dunno what it means)
- "8. Architect. short for string course or stringer (sense 1). (?)" (I don't know it either)
For those following the "physical-string/sequence" trend, all you then have to do is think about it adjectivally (does this look like a string when visualised/put into a diagram?), then nominally (e.g. "the strings sound out of tune today" referring to "instrumenty strunowe"), then verbally (has this action got anything to do with strings being the subject, object or indirect object?).
And that's all I can really think of as how the thought patterns work. Maybe I should work on it later to produce something a little more useful....
darkweasel (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 17:35:06
OT: Somehow this discussion about the many meanings of English-language "string" reminded me of a passage in Mark Twain's "The Awful German Language" - surely greatly exaggerated:
There are some exceedingly useful words in this language. Schlag, for example; and Zug. There are three-quarters of a column of Schlags in the dictionary, and a column and a half of Zugs. The word Schlag means Blow, Stroke, Dash, Hit, Shock, Clap, Slap, Time, Bar, Coin, Stamp, Kind, Sort, Manner, Way, Apoplexy, Wood-cutting, Enclosure, Field, Forest-clearing. This is its simple and exact meaning -- that is to say, its restricted, its fettered meaning; but there are ways by which you can set it free, so that it can soar away, as on the wings of the morning, and never be at rest. You can hang any word you please to its tail, and make it mean anything you want to. You can begin with Schlag-ader, which means artery, and you can hang on the whole dictionary, word by word, clear through the alphabet to Schlag-wasser, which means bilge-water -- and including Schlag-mutter, which means mother-in-law.
Just the same with Zug. Strictly speaking, Zug means Pull, Tug, Draught, Procession, March, Progress, Flight, Direction, Expedition, Train, Caravan, Passage, Stroke, Touch, Line, Flourish, Trait of Character, Feature, Lineament, Chess-move, Organ-stop, Team, Whiff, Bias, Drawer, Propensity, Inhalation, Disposition: but that thing which it does not mean -- when all its legitimate pennants have been hung on, has not been discovered yet.
One cannot overestimate the usefulness of Schlag and Zug. Armed just with these two, and the word also, what cannot the foreigner on German soil accomplish? The German word also is the equivalent of the English phrase "You know," and does not mean anything at all -- in talk, though it sometimes does in print. Every time a German opens his mouth an also falls out; and every time he shuts it he bites one in two that was trying to get out.
Now, the foreigner, equipped with these three noble words, is master of the situation. Let him talk right along, fearlessly; let him pour his indifferent German forth, and when he lacks for a word, let him heave a Schlag into the vacuum; all the chances are that it fits it like a plug, but if it doesn't let him promptly heave a Zug after it; the two together can hardly fail to bung the hole; but if, by a miracle, they should fail, let him simply say also! and this will give him a moment's chance to think of the needful word. In Germany, when you load your conversational gun it is always best to throw in a Schlag or two and a Zug or two, because it doesn't make any difference how much the rest of the charge may scatter, you are bound to bag something with them. Then you blandly say also, and load up again. Nothing gives such an air of grace and elegance and unconstraint to a German or an English conversation as to scatter it full of "Also's" or "You knows."
There are some exceedingly useful words in this language. Schlag, for example; and Zug. There are three-quarters of a column of Schlags in the dictionary, and a column and a half of Zugs. The word Schlag means Blow, Stroke, Dash, Hit, Shock, Clap, Slap, Time, Bar, Coin, Stamp, Kind, Sort, Manner, Way, Apoplexy, Wood-cutting, Enclosure, Field, Forest-clearing. This is its simple and exact meaning -- that is to say, its restricted, its fettered meaning; but there are ways by which you can set it free, so that it can soar away, as on the wings of the morning, and never be at rest. You can hang any word you please to its tail, and make it mean anything you want to. You can begin with Schlag-ader, which means artery, and you can hang on the whole dictionary, word by word, clear through the alphabet to Schlag-wasser, which means bilge-water -- and including Schlag-mutter, which means mother-in-law.
Just the same with Zug. Strictly speaking, Zug means Pull, Tug, Draught, Procession, March, Progress, Flight, Direction, Expedition, Train, Caravan, Passage, Stroke, Touch, Line, Flourish, Trait of Character, Feature, Lineament, Chess-move, Organ-stop, Team, Whiff, Bias, Drawer, Propensity, Inhalation, Disposition: but that thing which it does not mean -- when all its legitimate pennants have been hung on, has not been discovered yet.
One cannot overestimate the usefulness of Schlag and Zug. Armed just with these two, and the word also, what cannot the foreigner on German soil accomplish? The German word also is the equivalent of the English phrase "You know," and does not mean anything at all -- in talk, though it sometimes does in print. Every time a German opens his mouth an also falls out; and every time he shuts it he bites one in two that was trying to get out.
Now, the foreigner, equipped with these three noble words, is master of the situation. Let him talk right along, fearlessly; let him pour his indifferent German forth, and when he lacks for a word, let him heave a Schlag into the vacuum; all the chances are that it fits it like a plug, but if it doesn't let him promptly heave a Zug after it; the two together can hardly fail to bung the hole; but if, by a miracle, they should fail, let him simply say also! and this will give him a moment's chance to think of the needful word. In Germany, when you load your conversational gun it is always best to throw in a Schlag or two and a Zug or two, because it doesn't make any difference how much the rest of the charge may scatter, you are bound to bag something with them. Then you blandly say also, and load up again. Nothing gives such an air of grace and elegance and unconstraint to a German or an English conversation as to scatter it full of "Also's" or "You knows."
ceigered (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 23. 17:38:59
geo63:Some joke:Haha, these are excellent! And the latter sounds like me when I was 13
sudanglo (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 24. 11:25:43
I suppose that the thing about English is that although we have common words which have a fairly broad application, at the same time because of years of borrowing heavily from other languages around the globe, we have lots of specific words.
Here are a few word related to string as a noun - cord, line, cable, rope, yarn, twine, thread, lace, strand, fibre, filament.
And as a verb (string up) - tie, bind, lash, fasten, secure, tether, truss, strap, hitch, chain, align, line up.
My synonym dictionary goes on at length in this vein.
By the way, the stuff in Tom's pic ref. is for me ŝnureto
Here are a few word related to string as a noun - cord, line, cable, rope, yarn, twine, thread, lace, strand, fibre, filament.
And as a verb (string up) - tie, bind, lash, fasten, secure, tether, truss, strap, hitch, chain, align, line up.
My synonym dictionary goes on at length in this vein.
By the way, the stuff in Tom's pic ref. is for me ŝnureto
henma (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 24. 14:07:56
darkweasel:(a very good joke about German)That text makes me remember when I first saw the verb "get" in English... I couldn't believe that such a short word could have so many meanings and could change so much by adding some prepositions (what do "get up" and "get along" have in common??)
I think it's a characteristic of Germanic languages.
Amike,
Daniel.
henma (Profil megtekintése) 2011. április 24. 14:26:38
sudanglo:I suppose that the thing about English is that although we have common words which have a fairly broad application, at the same time because of years of borrowing heavily from other languages around the globe, we have lots of specific words.I think it's not only specific to English. But you are completely right about the fact that English also has specific words for string.
I think in many languages we have words that have multiple (sometimes unrelated) meanings, and those words have different synonyms for each meaning.
For the sentence "how long is a piece of string", I can think of several words in Spanish that would fit for string:
Cuerda, cordel, hilo, cable, pita.
But only one of those, for instance can be used with the meaning of a string for an instrument (cuerda).
And, related to the original topic
... I don't think that it's possible to translate this sentence correctly to Esperanto. It's possibly an expression that has some history. I didn't understand the expression immediately, and I don't think we have an exact equivalent in Spanish.
But, for me, the word in Esperanto should be ŝnuro or ŝnureto.
Amike,
Daniel.