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Kio, kiu, tio, and tiu

de Majklo, 2 de maig de 2011

Missatges: 16

Llengua: English

Majklo (Mostra el perfil) 2 de maig de 2011 0.32.15

Greetings (Saluton) -

I just learned about the correlative words. My first impression was that kiu and tiu were for when a person is being referred to, but after reading I find many examples of kiu and tiu referring to objects. For example, Lesson 14 in The American Esperanto Book there are the sentences:

Tiu ĉi urbo havas milionon da loĝantoj.

Kvar metroj da tiu ĉi ŝtofo kostas naŭ frankojn.

Tiu ĉi libro havas sesdek paĝojn.

Why is it "tiu" and not "tio?"

Likewise, the previous lesson has:

Kion Dio kreis en la sesa tago?

Kiun daton ni havas?

Would the meaning change if I had changed Kion to Kiun and vice versa?

I think I have the difference between ĉio and ĉiu, the former being "everything" or "all" while the latter is "each" or "every." I'm having difficulty applying it to ki- and ti- though.

Dankegon - thank you very much.

adrideo (Mostra el perfil) 2 de maig de 2011 0.39.06

Majklo:
Why is it "tiu" and not "tio?"
'Kiu' can be 'who' or 'which one' in English. Likewise, 'tiu' can be "that person" but it can also be 'that one'
Likewise, the previous lesson has:

Kion Dio kreis en la sesa tago?

Kiun daton ni havas?

Would the meaning change if I had changed Kion to Kiun and vice versa?
Without a noun to modify, 'kiu' is assumed to mean 'which person' or 'who', so

Kiun Dio kreis en la sesa tago?

would mean

Whom did God create on the 6th day?

*Kion daton ni havas?
is ungrammatical. It would be like saying
What thing date is it?

Mustelvulpo (Mostra el perfil) 2 de maig de 2011 3.10.45

One of the hardest things about beginning the language is the correlatives. At first, it seems like they're all so much alike and it's hard to remember what each one means. If you keep at it, I promise you that they will quickly become clear.

Kio estas tio? = What is that?

Kio estas tiu? = What is that (specific thing that I see)?

Kiu estas tiu? = Which one is that? or Who is that?

Majklo (Mostra el perfil) 2 de maig de 2011 5.50.00

Mustelvulpo:One of the hardest things about beginning the language is the correlatives. At first, it seems like they're all so much alike and it's hard to remember what each one means. If you keep at it, I promise you that they will quickly become clear.

Kio estas tio? = What is that?

Kio estas tiu? = What is that (specific thing that I see)?

Kiu estas tiu? = Which one is that? or Who is that?
Thank you, Mustelvulpo and adrideo. I think the concept is clearer.

"Tio" isn't used very often is it? I finally found a reference that says it "refers to an object, fact, or action not definitely specified." (but never a person)

Se tio estas vidota, li estas punota, if that is going to be seen, he is going to be punished.
Tio devus esti farita, that ought to have been done.
Tio estas ne nur senutila sed eĉ malutila, that is not only useless but even harmful.

So I'm getting better, eventually rido.gif

Thank you very much

erinja (Mostra el perfil) 2 de maig de 2011 14.30.26

"Tio" is used all the time.

If you think about English for a second, sometimes we say "that [thing]" (that is, "that" accompanied by a noun - that dog, that house, that idea, etc) and sometimes we say "that" all alone - like in "I didn't know that!" or "That sounds fun!"

Use "tiu" when you would say "that" accompanied by a noun in English. Tiu hundo, tiu domo, tiu ideo. Use "tio" when you would say "that" all by itself.

"Mi ne sciis tion!" "Tio sonas amuze!"

If you use "tiu" all alone, translate it as "that one" or "that person" or "that individual".

"Ĉu vi vidis tiun?" - "Did you see that one?"

ceigered (Mostra el perfil) 3 de maig de 2011 4.09.44

Perhaps "Tio aĉas!, homo!" (That sucks, man!) would be a good example if "aĉ-" and "homo" can indeed be used in such a way lango.gif

darkweasel (Mostra el perfil) 3 de maig de 2011 5.13.20

ceigered:Perhaps "Tio aĉas!, homo!" (That sucks, man!) would be a good example if "aĉ-" and "homo" can indeed be used in such a way lango.gif
Homo can't, in my opinion.

Anyway, concerning how much tio is used: La Oftecoj de la Esperantaj Korelativoj says that 9.41% of all correlatives are tio.

ceigered (Mostra el perfil) 3 de maig de 2011 7.18.57

I'll make a separate thread on the "homo"/equivalent issue then ridulo.gif

tommjames (Mostra el perfil) 3 de maig de 2011 10.37.06

darkweasel:Anyway, concerning how much tio is used: La Oftecoj de la Esperantaj Korelativoj says that 9.41% of all correlatives are tio.
It's interesting to note the contrast between written works and colloquial speech; where Tekstaro has "kiu" as the most common correlative with 17.72% and "tio" in third place with 9.41%, the logs in the chatroom at Freenode actually have "tio" as almost twice as common as "kiu" and the 12th most common word out of all words spoken!

Miland (Mostra el perfil) 3 de maig de 2011 11.06.23

Majklo:Tiu ĉi urbo havas milionon da loĝantoj.
Kvar metroj da tiu ĉi ŝtofo kostas naŭ frankojn.
Tiu ĉi libro havas sesdek paĝojn.
Why is it "tiu" and not "tio?"
Tio is used before something that is not a clearly defined individual thing. Urbo and kvar metro de stofo are clearly defined objects, so you wouldn't use tio before them.

Majklo:Kion Dio kreis en la sesa tago?
Kiun daton ni havas?
Would the meaning change if I had changed Kion to Kiun and vice versa?
Yes. In the first you would be asking "Which clearly defined individual thing (out of a group, perhaps) did God create on the sixth day?", whereas the word kio refers to "What" in general without narrowing it down to an individual thing.

In the second example, kion daton would not be correct, since dato, "date" is clearly defined. The confusion may arise from the fact that in English, some people say "what" when they mean "which", e.g. "on what date" when they mean "on which (individual) date". In Esperanto this would be je kiu dato.

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