Messages: 29
Language: English
Chainy (User's profile) May 3, 2011, 3:59:33 PM
T0dd:Personally, I like ulo for this usage, as well for the generic "bloke/guy" sort of reference.This is one part of Esperanto that seems to be in bit of a muddle. People certainly do say 'ulo' in the sense of 'man', 'guy' or 'chap'. Potentially a little confusing, as 'ulo' originally just means 'person'. Why suddenly 'man'? Ok, so in our minds we're contrasting this with 'ulino'. I feel a little uncomfortable with this, but you really do often come across 'ulo' used in the male sense, so this starts to stick in your mind.
Just gets a little confusing when you then come across words such as 'gejunuloj' - suddenly due to people feeling that 'ulo' has the male meaning, they believe it's then necessary to use 'ge-' to highlight that they are actually refering to 'both male and female young people', when really 'junuloj' should already convey this meaning!
And then rather bizarrely, the same person will quite happily refer to 'maljunuloj' in the sense of 'both male and female old people'. Suddenly, they decide that 'ge-' is not needed, presumably because it's quite a mouthful to say 'ge-mal-jun-ul-oj'.
Moving into rather arbitrary rules here! It seems rather unlikely that a natural development will clear this up - so many people seem to have slightly different ways of dealing with this! PMEG talks about it here
bagatelo (User's profile) May 3, 2011, 5:10:51 PM
sudanglo: You could try using a swear word, such as 'Fek' to add more colour to the expression.Sounds a bit "Pastro Ted" to me
sudanglo (User's profile) May 4, 2011, 10:02:04 AM
Did he actually say 'fek' though. I don't remember, But I seem to remember him saying 'Fekking' - that would have to be 'feka' or 'feke' en Esperanto.
You might think that 'fek' in Esperanto is like saying 'Sugar' in English instead of 'shit' - a way of avoiding say 'fik'.
But 'feki' is a word in its own right for a certain unsavoury bodily function, and 'fek' the expletive form. Nevertheless it may derive some of its force from the assonance with 'fiki'.
ceigered (User's profile) May 4, 2011, 11:59:44 AM
Chainy:'man' in this sense is gender neutral - the reason we use "man" to describe men is because the "true" word for man (were) has fallen out of use severly except in "werewolf", and "wife" has become associated with wives, but at the same time someone thought "wifeman" would be a good way to point out women, but never thought about "wereman" and thus men never got their own word and have to have a hand-me-downT0dd:Personally, I like ulo for this usage, as well for the generic "bloke/guy" sort of reference.This is one part of Esperanto that seems to be in bit of a muddle. People certainly do say 'ulo' in the sense of 'man', 'guy' or 'chap'. Potentially a little confusing, as 'ulo' originally just means 'person'. Why suddenly 'man'? Ok, so in our minds we're contrasting this with 'ulino'. I feel a little uncomfortable with this, but you really do often come across 'ulo' used in the male sense, so this starts to stick in your mind.
(seriously, English is funny in this regard. Were-, wife, man, husband, all these words keep on shifting meanings!)
So, ultimately, as a result of this, "ulo" would probably be a better equivalent as it's not as formal as "homo" (person, human).
(if I may postulate a theory, I believe that language may be, for as long as men have testosterone and women oestrogen, biased towards a state where women will be referred to as a special case. It seems like the dominating nature of a males genetics (a stereotypical male that is) has some effect on the language like that. Thus the main hope for gender neutrality in language would require a lot of tailoring of languages and thinking on a more transhuman level where subliminal gender bias is no longer being so.. subliminal.... that might take some time though, given the direction my generation seems to be headed in
). bagatelo (User's profile) May 4, 2011, 6:41:52 PM
sudanglo:Perhaps Father Ted was a closet Esperantist.I'm sure he did, but his 'feck count' was probably well outstripped by Jack's frequent bursts of "Drink! Fek! Arse!"
Did he actually say 'fek' though. I don't remember, But I seem to remember him saying 'Fekking' - that would have to be 'feka' or 'feke' en Esperanto.
You might think that 'fek' in Esperanto is like saying 'Sugar' in English instead of 'shit' - a way of avoiding say 'fik'.
But 'feki' is a word in its own right for a certain unsavoury bodily function, and 'fek' the expletive form. Nevertheless it may derive some of its force from the assonance with 'fiki'.
fiki/feki - point taken!
ceigered (User's profile) May 5, 2011, 7:38:31 AM
Although I know in Ireland "feck" is like their version of "frick", which is convenient.
3rdblade (User's profile) May 5, 2011, 8:48:27 AM
ceigered:Context: "man that sucks". "Oh man look at whachu did to mah shoes!" "Man, you need to chillaaaaaax" "Man aloive that crocodoile just ight me leg!" etc, something around those lines. A cross between a emphatic address to anyone nearby, and an emphatic expression of the situationPeople used to sat 'I say!', at least according to old movies they did. eg. "I say, look what you did to my shoes!" Don't know if this could be esperantised... "Mi diras, tiu krokodilo ĵus manĝis mian kruron!" I think 'Jen' would work better. How about twice? "Jen jen! La hipopotamo enfaŭkigis mian kruron!"
Charlie Brown used to say 'Oh brother!' for the same effect. "Oh brother, the tree ate my kite!" "Ho frato, la arbo manĝis mian kajton!"
Anyway, 'man' in this context seems to be new-fashioned English slang. I have seen 'ulo' used for 'guy, chap, dude' etc.
sudanglo (User's profile) May 5, 2011, 9:14:33 AM
'Fek' in Esperanto belongs to the same register, and is not a term limited to medical use like 'faeces' (in my experience).
But if you want to, you can say 'Kak' aŭ 'Merdo'.
Since nobody ever goes to the Doctor in Esperanto, I'm not sure what term he would use. The whole issue of what words belong to what register in Esperanto is rather nebulous, though in some cases clear.
Would he say 'estas sangeroj en viaj solidaĵoj'?
Chainy (User's profile) May 5, 2011, 10:01:43 AM
3rdblade:I have seen 'ulo' used for 'guy, chap, dude' etc.Indeed, but I'm just wondering if this is a good thing... (see my previous message).
Although, Americans seem to use 'guy' to refer to both men and women, so in that case maybe 'ulo' would be ok.
On the other hand, maybe we should all just accept that 'ulo' refers to men. And that we sometimes use 'ge-' in words such as 'gejunuloj' but not in others, such as 'maljunuloj'. Just one of the grey areas in Esperanto?
Chainy (User's profile) May 5, 2011, 10:19:22 AM