Chainy:

ceigered:
Anyway, I think it's brought up an interesting issue - if I had heard a native speaker say the same thing, I wouldn't have paid attention to it, and maybe chuckled, but because it was a non-native speaker the comment was much more visible to me. I wonder why - perhaps native speakers of languages think that comments made by foreigners that are already "risky" in the language must be mistakes rather than having a level headed assessment of the situation.

Chuckled? About what? The comment about not being an Arab? Are you serious?

Your post annoyed me as everyone was falling over themselves to try and cool things off in this thread - and then you go and bung in a senseless statement like that!

Unfortunately you've misunderstood, which is why I've gone and deleted the original comments. And now I understand how Targanook may feel depending on his intention with the joke.

The idea is that between me and many native speakers, such a comment would be understood as not being offensive. At least here in Australia, you might know that we don't mind small jokes involving other cultures including ourselves, and some authors have described it as if Australians find those exempt from the rule ("you can't pay us out because we're another culture") as being arrogant or full of themselves (that's a stereotypical way of looking at an australian stereotyping someone though, so keep in mind it's not quite a pure observation).

Of course, there are boundaries. But the idea is that as an Australian speaker we understand it in two ways.
1stly (the stereotypical Australian way), that the reason westerners would have to worry about him being an arab is because we understand that they have a lot to be peaved off at us at (remember, for the most part australian culture emphasises that being patriotic and proud of your country and it's achievements is not desirable, thus our joking about over patriotic americans)
2ndly (the Politically Correct way), the other way I could understand the comment is as one that is racist, implying that, rather than middle easterners having a right to be peaved at us belligerent westerners, instead that middle easterners are easily angered people.

The idea is that, because I do not identify Targanook as being a native speaker, and because English speakers, at least in writing, identify other natives as sharing the same culture as them, I thus do not assume that he's being humble in his joking, which leads to a misunderstanding.

So, instead of using my brain, because I don't see Targanook as being an Australian, I completely ignored the fact that the true but end of the joke might not be the arabs but the *westerners* who are so paranoid of them, or who keep sticking their nose into middle eastern affairs.

When I tried to communicate that I think I might understand, I then forgot that Australian culture does not equal the rest of the anglosphere's culture, and that others might not understand the whole "pay yourself/everyone including yourself out".

This "leave no man standing, especially yourself" ideal, along with my ignorance to the fact that other "native english speakers" do not share the same cultural realities, probably also caused the confusion of The Jackson Jive incident.

Anyway, normally I wouldn't discuss any of this here and would avoid this, but I felt sorry for the wall of "WHATTHE?" heading towards Targanook after donating my piece to it that I decided I might as well steal the controversial spotlight and share it with him.

And now that I think of it, that's where a massive problem inlies: we might be able to create a universal language that's easy to understand, but how do we understand each others cultures, when such subliminal, hidden yet deeply ingrained thought patterns persist to cause misunderstandings?

ceigered:And now that I think of it, that's where a massive problem inlies: we might be able to create a universal language that's easy to understand, but how do we understand each others cultures, when such subliminal, hidden yet deeply ingrained thought patterns persist to cause misunderstandings?

But...that's where psychology steps in. And you can't drown psychological messages in language. Prejudices and stereotypes will always exist in many forms under many pretenses, no matter how they're spelled or pronounced. Esperanto can only mitigate this. So it is a massive problem and we'll just have to muddle through. Unless we all become sociologists, we'll never completely be able to reach compromise.

Kraughne:Unless we all become sociologists, we'll never completely be able to reach compromise.

Mmm... Are reeducation camps frowned upon by human rights law?

But I guess you're right... I guess educating children, and adults (I need some clearly) properly about these issues is the only way to make progress in this field.

Ceigered, I think you're analysing things to the point of absurdity. Even to the point where you are now supporting a teenager's misconceived remark about Arabs!

Everyone was rightly united in their criticism on this matter until you randomly decided to pop up with your torturously long and mind-numbing musings on this and that...

targanook:

erinja:If you don't care at all about English, then I suggest you ignore any threads that are about English.

And I don't understand what you are trying to say about Arabs. The terms of this site do not permit offensive statements against any ethnic groups, nations, religions, etc.

We, Poles, are not Arabs - we live in different part of the world, we speak a different language and we have different customs, skin color, height and other attributes. What so unclear about that, is that sentence not true? Perhaps it is you, who think of Arabs in an offensive way. OK, if somehow "Arabs" is improper in English, replace it with "Chinese", "Polinesian" or what ever you like. It is your language, not mine, and you know better...

Just some try to explain how I understand targanook statements. From a German-European neighbourhood view at Poland I understand that comment this way:

The last centuries Poland was a match-ball of several European superpower states (at this time). The borders of Poland were changed quite often from outside without legimitaton of the Polish people. Which tradiditonal country-society unsolicited did allow border changes? So, as Poland joined the European Union, Polish people get the first(?) time an completly non-touchable independent country. In my opinion they are very proud of that. But who know Polish people, they are very open-minded and quite lively globetrotters. I assume why targanook points to Middle East countries is that probably Polish people would never down-prioritize their being Polish to make political aggreements. They wanna be accepted at the same Eye-level. And they are very distrustful against own government. And maybe targanook has the opinion that some countries in Middle East are doing different. He seems to have the opinion that these countries don't take care to be independent countries during political aggreements. (in German: "sich unterbuttern lassen") And he also seems to have the opinion that the reason for that is non-proper language proficiency of the English language during that political arrangements.

@targanook: Do I'm right or wrong with my personal assumptions?

geo63:Misunderstandings happen even with a man/woman living next door - when it comes to international level, they (misunderstandings) are sure to appear. People live in different cultures and have their own customs, ways of thinking and understanding the world around them. We are all humans but not the same. So internationally we must be extra tolerant.

I fully aggree to that. International Communciation needs a lot of tolerance and patience. A lot of. It's sometime quite difficult to tolerate "malmemkultureco".

ceigered:
Unfortunately you've misunderstood, which is why I've gone and deleted the original comments. And now I understand how Targanook may feel depending on his intention with the joke.

Ceigered, are you for real? Please go back and read through the context of Targanook's comment. It was clearly not acceptable.

ceigered:
The idea is that between me and many native speakers, such a comment would be understood as not being offensive.

I suspect you don't really mean this, or at least have misunderstood the situation a little.

ceigered:At least here in Australia, you might know that we don't mind small jokes involving other cultures including ourselves

Good humoured banter is something quite different, and that was not what happened in the thread here.

ceigered:...I thus do not assume that he's being humble in his joking, which leads to a misunderstanding.

'Humble'?! What on earth are you talking about, Ceigered?

ceigered:So, instead of using my brain, because I don't see Targanook as being an Australian, I completely ignored the fact that the true but end of the joke might not be the arabs but the *westerners* who are so paranoid of them, or who keep sticking their nose into middle eastern affairs.

Your 'brain' seems to be straining somewhat! Your message just gets more and more bizarre.

I don't have the energy to go through every bit of it. My head hurts from reading it. Just take a look at the context of that original comment again and forget about all these silly ideas about somehow justifying it!

ceigered:
When I tried to communicate that I think I might understand, I then forgot that Australian culture does not equal the rest of the anglosphere's culture, and that others might not understand the whole "pay yourself/everyone including yourself out".
...
This "leave no man standing, especially yourself" ideal, along with my ignorance to the fact that other "native english speakers" do not share the same cultural realities, probably also caused the confusion of The Jackson Jive incident.

So in result, growing up in Australia puts someone into a society with more collegiality "group-" beliefs and other anglophone society let grow their society fellows more an "individualists-" belief way, mate?

ceigered:And now that I think of it, that's where a massive problem inlies: we might be able to create a universal language that's easy to understand, but how do we understand each others cultures, when such subliminal, hidden yet deeply ingrained thought patterns persist to cause misunderstandings?

Trying to take it humourfully.

OK Chainy clearly we're suffering a breakdown of communications here.

Chainy:Ceigered, are you for real? Please go back and read through the context of Targanook's comment. It was clearly not acceptable.

His comment was "I am relaxed - we are not Arabs.", was it not? There is also no supporting context I can find to indicate anything particularly offensive AFTER you get over the fact he said another nationality in an awkward way which is easy to take offence at from a politically correct point of view.

Chainy:'Humble'?! What on earth are you talking about, Ceigered?

Maybe if you read my long and tortuous post I didn't want to put there because I KNEW it would lead to such misunderstandings, you might know.

I repeat: In Australia, IT IS NOT UNCOMMON TO INCLUDE OTHER CULTURES OR GROUPS IN YOUR JOKE PROVIDED THE JOKE TREATS EVERYONE EQUALLY OR SPECIFICALLY INSULTS YOURSELF. Thus, Australian humility can be thought of as us insulting ourselves in round about ways.

So, from an Australian viewpoint, the phrase (if written neater) "Relax - we're not annoyed at all, we're polesAussies, not arabs" (poles replaced for sake of example) could mean "Hey, don't worry Mr. Yank. I'm an Australian, an as an Australian I'm used to putting up with your crap because we follow your example to the tee anyway, unlike the arabs who have a genuine right to be peaved off at you for invading countries in their regions and pushing aside their culture... which we happened to contribue to too... whoops". And while I'm straining my brain trying to explain this, in casual conversation such a small, easy to misunderstand comment involving foreign cultures yet loaded in subliminal punchlines is not uncommon for people where I live.

Because Australians think of them as mini-yanks (normally - we can deny it if we like but we know deep down in our hearts it is true in many ways), and we know our role in the wars in the Middle East (for this example) we'd also be paying ourselves out without specifically mentioning it. Thus, I was wondering if perhaps the Poles also have a similar thing (this is after I jumped at Targanook without thinking about this possibility).

Chainy:Just take a look at the context of that original comment again and forget about all these silly ideas about somehow justifying it!

I'm just trying to explain how there might be another way of looking at this, not giving a definite opinion. And I'm giving an Australian cultural example to further my point.

I'll say it again, in Australian culture, we think of ourselves and the Australian identity as being one where people are equal - thus, cultural sensitivies like "you can't mention arabs because it's racist", to an Australian, seem very foreign - thus, we assume that all foreigners are like that.

I'm writing this to "atone" for what I now consider my foolishness in not giving targanook sufficient time to explain his comment. While it's a slim chance he meant the same thing as an Aussie might mean (a non racist aussie anyway, another kettle of fish), I know that if I made a similar comment and was lambasted by a whole bunch of non-australian English speakers, I'd be VERY peeved.

qwertz:

ceigered:
When I tried to communicate that I think I might understand, I then forgot that Australian culture does not equal the rest of the anglosphere's culture, and that others might not understand the whole "pay yourself/everyone including yourself out".
...
This "leave no man standing, especially yourself" ideal, along with my ignorance to the fact that other "native english speakers" do not share the same cultural realities, probably also caused the confusion of The Jackson Jive incident.

So in result, growing up in Australia puts someone into a society with more collegiality "group-" beliefs and other anglophone society let grow their society fellows more an "individualists-" belief way, mate?

Haha, nice gratuitous "mate"

But the problem's too complex for that - political correctness is much more ingrained in American and UK society than it is in Australia (which is why we sometime get nicknamed "rednecks", based on perceived similarities with US "rednecks"). In addition, we all have our own ideas of individuality, and how we should submit to society. In some countries, society rules how individuality should be expressed, where as in other countries, individuality rules how society should be expressed. I think the former is Australia, and the latter the rest, but we all are very intertwined except for these obscure cultural differences that we don't realise are there.