Chainy:Ok, fair enough. But that's hardly ground-breaking stuff is it?! Non-raŭmists would agree entirely with points 2 and 3, so what's the big deal?! Why the fancy name?

What fancy name? Raŭmists? - It's after Rauma, a town in Finland, where the manifest was created.

Raumists change the goal of esperanto. It is not to become everyone's second language. It is a language as any other and for that it should be catered for by its users. Fina Venko no longer is important.

geo63:
Raumists change the goal of esperanto. It is not to become everyone's second language. It is a language as any other and for that it should be catered for by its users. Fina Venko no longer is important.

I see Raŭmismo somewhat more stronger = An deep cut/break/saying goodbye to finvenkismo = let behind an cramped, non-unique wanly-green-flag waving non-contemporary dinosaur E-o movement.

For me Raŭmismo means an contemporary proper mix of relaxed Entertainment, Edutainment & Language proficiency training efforts.

What seems to be the relationship between Finvenkismo and Raŭmismo? Something similar like between Scales and Sintel.

The problem with Raŭmismo is that it throws the baby out with the bath water.

Whilst the widespread adoption of Esperanto seems improbable, turning your back on Finvenkismo reduces Esperanto to the level of a hobby.

There is no longer any motivation to produce, for example, a terminaro of meteorological terms in Esperanto other than personal interest.

Or, for example, to lobby for the introduction of Esperanto in the schools.

Or, again, to reach the highest levels of proficiency in the language so that the necessary skills are available for the translation of commercial literature, contracts, treaties, subtitling of films etc.

On the other hand, finvenkismo, argues that the language should be ready to play its role (fulfil its original purpose) should the world stop ignoring Esperanto and start to take it seriously - whenever that might happen.

Raŭmismo looks inward to the narrow community of Esperantists. Finvenkismo looks outward to the wider world.

sudanglo:
Raŭmismo looks inward to the narrow community of Esperantists. Finvenkismo looks outward to the wider world.

Due to the Internet network I see narrow communties of Esperantist worldwide available (Global neighbourhood). And that's the success of the commercialising of the Internet mainly by the Internet-Providers. I believe that strengthen regional cultures a lot. The problem which comes along with this seems to be, that someones needs very well trained filtering proficiency to filter out in which direction someones wanna expand its knowledge, hobbies i.e. That's also the success modell of Facebook and also somewhat the defeat of traditional search-engines. Why I should stay hours and hours at the Net to find what I look for if same minded friends (which I met offline of course.) recommend me where I find what I'm looking for. Trust is getting paramount. I trust that my friends recommend new interesting friends/ "proper things"/ the most mojosa aferoj ones/ the most EDUtainment ones etc. In my opinion, one possibility to reach at this information overload some spreadness, needs to create something out-standing with some entertainment or better edutainment character. In my opinion the "E-o as a bridge language"- train has left behind the horizont. If that will happen, then tool-like for the represenation of E-o culture. Maybe it will trigger a back-effect to Esperanto language the way. Hey, they have an interesting culture portfolio. And even more that language seems to be quite easy to learn. So interesting culture first, awareness of easy learning second. Just my point of view.

Ok seriously, are you guys joking?

Can we please *not* get into another Raumism vs. Finvenkism debate?

I am sick to death of rehashing the same topics, between the same people, over and over again.

qwertz and sudanglo, if you really want to discuss this topic, please take it to private messages.

erinja:Ok seriously, are you guys joking?

Can we please *not* get into another Raumism vs. Finvenkism debate?

I am sick to death of rehashing the same topics, between the same people, over and over again.

Indeed, I see it as an entirely unnecessary debate. Everyone's fundamentally in agreement, after all. We'd all like to see the Esperanto community grow, so why argue over the notion of 'Finvenkismo' - this is a purely hypothetical idea. Even if you like the idea of a particular language being the second language for all, then great, but in the meantime we get on with what we've got! So, after all the hot air, we find that we're in the same boat anyway. So, let's just get on with each other!

erinja:Ok seriously, are you guys joking?

Can we please *not* get into another Raumism vs. Finvenkism debate?

I am sick to death of rehashing the same topics, between the same people, over and over again.

qwertz and sudanglo, if you really want to discuss this topic, please take it to private messages.

Philosophers are asking and debating the same questions since centuries, over and over again.

So, after all the hot air, we find that we're in the same boat anyway. So, let's just get on with each other!

Yes, I agree, but where and how and what for and so on? You also didn't give a solution and you even didn't try. Manifest is trying to do something, to solve something. To give tools.

I'm not joking.

Okay, then it should be specified more in detail at terms of use "Specific rules for the lernu! forums:"

"1. Don't continually write about something that doesn't relate at all to the topic."

... Lernu.net forum disscussions have to have "learning the language"-purpose only. Any discussion which is Esperanto related in favour to the topic listed at lernu.net top navigation bar are welcome. Strategic disscusions like Raŭmismo, Finvenkismo are not welcome. These discussions have to be done via other communication facilies outside the lernu.net domain.

Or something like that.

@Chainy . I don't see fundamentally sit me in your boat. But anyway, we seem to be at the same river.

paulopolo:
Philosophers are asking and debating the same questions since centuries, over and over again.

I don't see some "hardcore" philosophical point about what was written before.

paulopolo:

So, after all the hot air, we find that we're in the same boat anyway. So, let's just get on with each other!

Yes, I agree, but where and how and what for and so on? You also didn't give a solution and you even didn't try. Manifest is trying to do something, to solve something. To give tools.

[/quote](not listed pri priority)

Raŭmismo tools:

Tool #one: www.vinilkosmo-mp3.com

Tool #two: Aleksander is doing and it's accepted, too.

Tool #three: I do ... and it's accepted.

Tool #four: komiksoj.wordpress.com + Pondus komiksoj (probably available next time at Kastelo Greziljono

non-finished list.

Still at the beginning but some folks are working at that Raŭmismo issue. Even if there are frustating much more consuming as/ol producing of Raŭmismo content.

Amike,

qwertz:I don't see some "hardcore" philosophical point about what was written before.

I wanted to show that:

I am sick to death of rehashing the same topics, between the same people, over and over again.

is wrong argument. Commonly admired people like philosophers are doing this. What would you think if someone said during philosophical debate at university:
"I am sick to death of rehashing the same topics, between the same people, over and over again."

Of course not everyone has to like philosophy. But if you don't like just study other subjects and don't tell to philosophers that you're sick of their faculty.
I hope I'm clear now

Many thanks for links to tools qwertz!

geo63:[...]So, I think:

1. [...] English will be replaced by some other language (Chinese, Arabic, Spanish, ...your vote...).

2. [...] The same happend to Latin when the Roman Empire colapsed - what are French, Italian, Spanish - post-latin languages? Globish is the candidate.

3. Unlikely - people will get wiser and choose esperanto for their international communication. [....]

I concur, and I think that's the most likely assessment. The biggest trouble is sorting out which between 1 and 2 are more likely, or if there's a "1.5" (a new language replaces English, but becomes heavily affected by English, just like what happened to English with Latin).

It might be possible to get 3 to influence 1/1.5/2, if not directly, but using the spirit of Esperanto and the ideas of tailoring a langauge in an artificial manner rather than laissez-faire style letting the language grow however it likes (and I've had to rely on Globish-style grammar there since I can't remember the right sounding words ).

My only request is - if "Globish" becomes popular and is "standardised", can we change the name because it sounds like some sort of chewy candy or blob-like substance