sudanglo:Fascinating report here

Who is the Mark Fettes mentioned in the last paragraph of the conclusion? (p.53 of the pdf, or p51 of the document itself) There's a huge quotation from him, but there's no info about where this is from. They give page numbers, but don't mention the title of the book, or anything about Mark Fettes in the Bibliography.

Just interesting, as there's an Esperantist named Mark Fettes. Surely it's just a coincidence, just some other guy with the same name?

This report is very interesting.

...The concept of English as a lingua franca, on the contrary, “dethrones” the native speaker (NS) and defines the goal of English learning as the ability to communicate successfully with other non-native speakers (NNS). This new theoretical approach places speakers in the Expanding Circle on the same level as speakers in the Inner and Outer Circles, and grants prestige to international English, estimated at around 75 % of all exchanges in English. It is better adapted to the current status of English as international language and takes into account its implications, firstly that, “as a consequence of its international use, English is being shaped at least as much by its nonnative speakers as by its native speakers” (Seidlhofer, 2005, p. 339). It recognises that we are facing a completely new phenomenon, which must be tackled with new and specific means, notably in terms of language teaching and learning. As David Graddol asserts in his recent study on the future of English, English Next, “teaching and learning English as a lingua franca (ELF) is probably the most radical and controversial approach to emerge in recent years. It squarely addresses some of the issues which global English raises” (p. 87). He calls for a redefinition of the traditional tenets in this field and, in particular, of the issue of “ownership”, i.e. who is entitled to set norms and pass judgements on language usage.
...

English - if it remains the international language - will evolve into a kind of (more anarchic version of) esperanto, whereas prensent english will become a dead language.

It's better for all to use simply esperanto - and keep their national language.

As an exemple of the kind of "reform" that could happen if the logic of the lingua franca was pushed to the end:

Among the earliest such works is Joan Jenkins’ research on the phonological features of ELF, which led her to identify the so-called “Lingua Franca Core”, i.e. items which are essential for intelligible pronunciation. In particular, her work showed how certain sounds regarded as “particularly English” but also particularly difficult for learners, like the “th” sounds /θ/ or /ð/, are very often dropped by ELF speakers, without any impact on the success of communication, and should therefore not be included in the Lingua Franca Core.

Chainy:Just interesting, as there's an Esperantist named Mark Fettes. Surely it's just a coincidence, just some other guy with the same name?

No coincidence! That quote comes from The Geostrategies of Interlingualism

Another interesting question (from Grin, who is an opposed to this idea):

The people who support the notion of ELF are very ambiguous in this respect, because they sometimes claim that it is another language, but when confronted with the anecdotal character of actual differences in syntax between ELF and native usage, they shift to another claim, namely, that ELF is not another language, but a type of “situation”. According to them, the situation is defined by the fact that it is used by nonnative speakers. But then they get tangled up in their own argument because they never clearly answer the question: “What happens in the case where you have a few native speakers of English and a few non-native speakers of English talking together? Is this ELF or is it ELF used by some participants and not by other participants?” The question remains unanswered simply because the whole concept is logically flawed. The reality is that English as a language is evolving and diverse — we do have variants of English, in the US, in Canada and in other English-speaking parts of the world. There are different standards, but the notion that ELF is emerging as a distinct standard of its own doesn’t hold up to scrutiny.

adrideo:

Chainy:Just interesting, as there's an Esperantist named Mark Fettes. Surely it's just a coincidence, just some other guy with the same name?

No coincidence! That quote comes from The Geostrategies of Interlingualism

Thanks, Adrideo, for finding that out. I find it pretty bizarre, though, to finish off the conclusion to such a report with a quote from Mark Fettes! Deary me, isn't he the guy who's often involved in the UEA attempts at rewriting their strategy etc?!

I can't remember his exact position, but he's one of the 'komitatanoj' for sure.

He gets quoted right in the final conclusion, in the very final remark, and yet in no relation to Esperanto! Crazy - if the people writing those reports are actually willing to listen to his ideas, then how about the Esperanto bits?! Surely an opportunity for Mr. Fettes to get people to look at Esperanto a bit more favourably?

Mark Fettes is a university professor with a research interest in language policy, so it's not surprising that one of his papers would be quoted in the article.

He's also on the board of the Esperantic Studies Foundation, the main source of funding behind lernu.net. (standard note: Please consider making a donation to lernu via the "Donate!" link under the survey on the right side of the page; ESF would like not to have to fund us forever)

Chainy:I just think that certain things should not be alluded to in a joke.

Agreed. Good thing I alluded to something completely different!

adrideo:No coincidence! That quote comes from The Geostrategies of Interlingualism

Wow. Thanks for the link. This is a rather heavy article. I'm so thrilled that "World English" is seen as a mark of the evils of capitalism. Hura.

erinja:Mark Fettes is a university professor with a research interest in language policy, so it's not surprising that one of his papers would be quoted in the article.

He's also on the board of the Esperantic Studies Foundation, the main source of funding behind lernu.net

yes, so it is indeed the Esperanto Mark Fettes. It's just that it was very surprising and slightly ironic to see him quoted in the final, concluding comment to such a report! Afterall, the main focus of the report is that English has spread to an unprecedented level as a lingua franca and seems rather set to continue in this role.

Yes, Esperanto is mentioned in the report in the list of other lingua francas, but they describe how the language failed to take off - the authors of the report don't really deal with what the future of Esperanto might be, but the general implication is that it has pretty much no chance. And yet, a quote from Mr. Fettes, an Esperantist, is chosen to wrap up the thoughts of the report's author! I was pretty surprised by this bizarre twist!

Chainy:He gets quoted right in the final conclusion, in the very final remark, and yet in no relation to Esperanto! Crazy - if the people writing those reports are actually willing to listen to his ideas, then how about the Esperanto bits?! Surely an opportunity for Mr. Fettes to get people to look at Esperanto a bit more favourably?

Ain't it par (of?) the course that decision makers and idea makers read reports to find out what the situation is and ignore the recommendations of the report writer, and then complain every time they see a report that doesn't make a recommendation?

Altebrilas:English - if it remains the international language - will evolve into a kind of (more anarchic version of) esperanto, whereas prensent english will become a dead language.

I disagree - present English will merely evolve into International English, so it never truly died, it only changed job descriptions, or it will split up into international English and itself, which will ensure its survival for as long as every other language survives.

That would change however if the current western countries were to have their borders and demographics changed significantly.

The former is similar to Singapore, where there isn't really a true "national, traditional language", but there are languages spoken by everyone brought from elsewhere, or languages always spoken there but now no longer the property of just one people.

[quote=url=http://dok.esperantic.org/~mfettes/geo.htm]The quoted article[/url]]World English. The most widespread second language of the present day, English, might make the world interlingual by becoming so well integrated in educational and social systems worldwide that it was accessible to all at minimal cost. One variant of World English is unilingualism; however, if the world's majority were motivated to keep cultivating their autochtonous languages, and if any related economic or social costs could be compensated, English might become the world's "second native language", transcending but coexisting with a multiplicity of other languages. (Pool and Fettes 1998: 2)[/quote]I think this would be interesting with the second option of a "second language for the world".

EDIT: Sorry, message came through late due to page not responding, and wow, linking within a [ CIT= ] marker works...

ceigered:Ain't it par (of?) the course that decision makers and idea makers read reports to find out what the situation is and ignore the recommendations of the report writer, and then complain every time they see a report that doesn't make a recommendation?

I was thinking myself that people don't really care what the conclusion of a report is; they take the language that suits their thesis and ignore the rest.

I don't know the contents of Mark's original paper but if someone didn't read it carefully, it is possible that they are not even aware he's an Esperantist.