geo63:The difference between English and Esperanto is that the latter is mostly used by educated people with whom the conversation is interesting and worthy. And English internationally has turned into Globish - a primitive form of the language.

Well, this is ironic.

The essential implication here is that English and Esperanto switched roles, right? Esperanto was intended to be an international language, but it now caters to an obscure group of intellectuals. And English at one time wasn't widely spoken outside of a few countries, but it's the lingua franca of the modern world. Interesting.

ceigered:

But I also met same believed Germans: "Here we have the oportunity to speak English all time. Let's do it. Even if we could use German".

That makes no sense to me, but I guess it is a relatively free society . But I'd hope then that they're speaking every other language the know in common whenever they can!

It's like switching off your native language capabilities. Not the effectiveness to exchange information as fast as possible is on focus (=possible with the native language of both communication mates). The focus is to soldier on through the communication situation and ongoing troubles without any help of someones native language. And what could be the aim? The aim is to think inside the foreign language. It's like the foreign word sentences drive like foreign-word-trains through someones head. (No, that's not drug related. That's language switching.) But that needs a lot of love of the foreign language because someones subconsciousness puts the persons native language at lower priority and the foreign language at highest priority. And that's also the reason why native speakers long living abroad have some trouble to switch instantly to their native language if they unreckoned meet somebody of their native language country.
Yes, that comments based at personal experiences. And in my opinion permanent language only happen if someones have daily the foreign language around oneselves OR puts oneselves artifically into that situation. Like that crazy Germans mentioned above.

ceigered:
I just read up on collegiality (damn you smart people and your big long words , that seems sort of right to me. Maybe society is more a blend between collegiality and individualism in free societies like the west - and laws are built around the collegiality aspect which is influenced by tradition?

Yes, I like that scale: "blend between collegiality and individualism".

The future of Globish (English as a Lingua Franca) will be determined not so much by the number of non-native speakers of English using English so much as by the feeling as to who has the right to set the language norms.

All the time it is felt that native speakers of English have this right then Globish will just be badly spoken English.

But, if the non-native speakers flex their muscles and assert their right to determine what counts as good Globish, then Globish will become a separate language and the world will have evolved its own 'Esperanto'.

I don't think this is very likely, but who knows.

I don't think academics will want their publications in 'Globish' ridiculed by native speakers, and I think they will still want to read papers in English. Nor can I imagine the whole EFL industry being restructured with learning materials being revised into Globish, and the emergence of Globish teachers.

sudanglo:But, if the non-native speakers flex their muscles and assert their right to determine what counts as good Globish, then Globish will become a separate language and the world will have evolved its own 'Esperanto'.

I don't think this is very likely, but who knows.

I don't think academics will want their publications in 'Globish' ridiculed by native speakers, and I think they will still want to read papers in English. Nor can I imagine the whole EFL industry being restructured with learning materials being revised into Globish, and the emergence of Globish teachers.

Which is why non-native speakers need to subliminally change the language in a way that deceives the native English speakers into thinking it's still the same language they've always spoken (and in the last 200 years that's happened a nice amount). Hopefully a cycle can be initiated where whatever version of English we're speaking gets normalised by "native speakers" and then gets slowly molded by "non-native speakers", up until a point where both categories end up being the same thing as simply "fluent speakers", and being a "native" speaker means you just have a native regional accent rather than any major advantage.

That should provide a fairly fertile ground for ideas like EO to take off, while also ironically providing competition against ideas like Esperanto - the traditional mindset would have eroded away, but theoretically by that time English would have morphed into something esperanto-like in character as sudanglo said. Meh...

@ Qwertz:
Thanks for the explanation, I originally thought that you meant Germans were going to Australia speaking English to non-English speakers or something! But now I get what you mean. In those cases, I wonder if it's that "collegiality" that's causing people to use English instead (a social norm?), or whether it's just a little game. I know here if you use too much of another language when you're not in that country it's considered "gratuitous (language)", e.g. "Gratuitous French", which can be anything from derogatory to just a playful quirk.

Kraughne:The essential implication here is that English and Esperanto switched roles, right?

Esperanto has always been a language learned voluntarily by idealists, not as a tool for professional advancement.

For historical reasons English has become an international professional language, and in the process occupied fields like diplomacy which Esperanto might have hoped to conquer.

Esperanto may yet find a role as a bridge language, or even a peacemaker, between people who have found it easier than English. However I cannot forget an old Japanese man at the World Congress in Rotterdam in 2008, who told me that he found English and Esperanto equally difficult (the situation may well be otherwise for younger people).

Kraughne:Well, this is ironic.

The essential implication here is that English and Esperanto switched roles, right? Esperanto was intended to be an international language, but it now caters to an obscure group of intellectuals. And English at one time wasn't widely spoken outside of a few countries, but it's the lingua franca of the modern world. Interesting.

English is used by everyone, but esperanto is used mostly by educated persons with whom the conversation is more interesting. I also noticed that speaking English is very hard and usually deals with simple matters, like asking way, booking a hotel room or ordering food at restaurant. The normal English conversation can only make natives among themselves. So is it really a lingua franca or a lingua comerca?

targanook:I also noticed that speaking English is very hard and usually deals with simple matters, like asking way, booking a hotel room or ordering food at restaurant. The normal English conversation can only make natives among themselves.

But English has one of the most sophisticated vocabularies of any of the world's languages. What about all of the abstruse material written in English about subjects like philosophy, mathematics, social issues, linguistics, etc.? I know for sure that we Anglophones aren't just talking about coffee and weather.

In fact, open up any simple handbook for a foreign language, and the first chapter will deal with learning the kind of simple things you mentioned. That doesn't mean the people who regularly use the language are mundane twats. Those are just building blocks for moving on to more advanced conversation.

Kraughne:

targanook:I also noticed that speaking English is very hard and usually deals with simple matters, like asking way, booking a hotel room or ordering food at restaurant. The normal English conversation can only make natives among themselves.

But English has one of the most sophisticated vocabularies of any of the world's languages. What about all of the abstruse material written in English about subjects like philosophy, mathematics, social issues, linguistics, etc.? I know for sure that we Anglophones aren't just talking about coffee and weather.

Maybe it's somewhat frustening to reach the point where someones getting aware that reaching native language level at an foreign language is still galaxies away. And that after many years. Then somones encounter some half-natural language like Esperanto and succeeds in just such less efforts to A1-KER. Of course that let's someones cursing against other natural languages (not just English only). Even more if lot's of folks around have the opinion that excactly that language is granted with bridge-language status. I also had that "English just sucks" effect after I started Esperanto. And I heard the same of a English girl about German language, too. But I tried to step back and by now I like English language again. But I also said Good-Bye to the aim ever reaching native language level at English. It would destroy every motiviation to keep going to improve my English because the distance between my language proficiency now and the galaxy-level "native speaker" seems to be frustating long.

Kraughne:
In fact, open up any simple handbook for a foreign language, and the first chapter will deal with learning the kind of simple things you mentioned. That doesn't mean the people who regularly use the language are mundane twats. Those are just building blocks for moving on to more advanced conversation.

In my opinion, learning foreign languages takes lot's of efforts. Including Esperanto.

Btw. En-Eo lernu.net dictionary gives me "malnaiva" for "sophisticated"? So "Sophisticated" is like "million tons prejudiced"? And does "sophisticated vocabulary" mean that every English word has an "million tons prejudiced/defined/common definition" meaning? Hhm, onces again, Esperanto helps me to understand English words. One reason more to buy the Wells dictionary.

Oxford dictionary says "1.characteristic of or experienced in fashionable life and its ways. 2.complicated, elaborate". dict.leo.org shows me 20(!) German translation suggestions for sophisticated. Puuh!

qwertz:Btw. En-Eo lernu.net dictionary gives me "malnaiva" for "sophisticated"? So "Sophisticated" is like "million tons prejudiced"? And does "sophisticated vocabulary" mean that every English word has an "million tons prejudiced/defined/common definition" meaning? Hhm, onces again, Esperanto helps me to understand English words.

'malnaiva' could perhaps be a way of translating 'sophisticated', but only in certain cases. In the context of what Kraughne was saying, 'sophisticated' does not have that meaning whatsoever.

If you say that a language has a sophisticated vocabularly, then it means that it has an extensive and rich vocabulary, one that is capable of describing all sorts of nuances etc.

Not sure about a suitable Esperanto word, how about 'ricxa' or 'vasta' vortostoko?

Chainy:Not sure about a suitable Esperanto word, how about 'ricxa' or 'vasta' vortostoko?

I'd use ampleksa for that. But I guess riĉa and vasta would be ok too.