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My Cat and Her Bowl

viết bởi bartlett22183, Ngày 13 tháng 5 năm 2011

Tin nhắn: 17

Nội dung: English

bartlett22183 (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:28:09 Ngày 13 tháng 5 năm 2011

I want to describe some of my daily experiences to someone (who does not speak English). Early in the morning, my cat comes into the bedroom, jumps up onto the bed, and pesters me to put food in her bowl. I have something like this: Fruajn matenojn, mia katino eniras en la dormoĉambron, saltas sur la liton, kaj turmentas min, ke mi metu nutraĵon en ŝian pelvon (kvankam ŝi jam estas tro peza). Corrections, suggestions, and improvements requested. Dankon.

Paŭlo

Hispanio (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 22:33:29 Ngày 13 tháng 5 năm 2011

bartlett22183:I want to describe some of my daily experiences to someone (who does not speak English). Early in the morning, my cat comes into the bedroom, jumps up onto the bed, and pesters me to put food in her bowl. I have something like this: Fruajn matenojn, mia katino eniras en la dormoĉambron, saltas sur la liton, kaj turmentas min, ke mi metu nutraĵon en ŝian pelvon (kvankam ŝi jam estas tro peza). Corrections, suggestions, and improvements requested. Dankon.

Paŭlo
I think that it would be better "Frumatene".

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 00:59:01 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

Sonas bone al mi!

I like the use of the directional -n okulumo.gif

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:31:46 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

It sounds weird to specify that your cat is female. Remember that most Esperanto words are considered gender-neutral (except the obvious family words) so unless it specifically matters that your cat is female, I'd go with the neutral "kato".

Other than that (and the "frumatene" suggestion that someone else has already rightly suggested), it looks good.

FYI if you say "fruajn matenojn", that means "On mornings that are early..." which doesn't make that much sense.

Frumatene = in the early morning

biguglydave (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:45:01 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

bartlett22183:... kaj turmentas min, ke mi metu nutraĵon ...
Earlier today, I read your post and I perfectly understood your meaning. It particularly made sense to me as a Spanish speaker, but I'm not sure that it repsents grammatically correct Esperanto. What was bothering me was the use of the word “ke”.

It seems to me as if “turmentas” has two direct objects: 1) min and 2) the clause after “ke”. This cannot happen in “correct” Esperanto. I'm by no means an expert, so perhaps someone else can jump in here and confirm my comment, or teach us both something new.

Instead of the above, I would say:

... kaj turmentas min por meti nutraĵon … i.e. pesters me in order to, for the purpose of + infinitive

OR

.. kaj turmentas min pri meti nutraĵon … i.e. pesters me about, related to … + infinitive

Does this make sense? Any other comments from anyone else?

erinja (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:54:25 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

It's a strange turn of phrase but not wrong, I think. If you were to say "turmentas min, tiel ke mi metu..." then it would definitely be 100% ok.

I'd also say "manĝaĵon" instead of "nutraĵon" but it's fine either way.

henma (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 01:55:13 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

biguglydave:
bartlett22183:... kaj turmentas min, ke mi metu nutraĵon ...
Earlier today, I read your post and I perfectly understood your meaning. It particularly made sense to me as a Spanish speaker, but I'm not sure that it repsents grammatically correct Esperanto. What was bothering me was the use of the word “ke”.
I also found it weird... I thought that "por" was missing, but I think it can be:

... turmentis min, por ke mi metu nutraĵon ...

I don't know if that is correct, in any case.

Amike,

Daniel.

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 02:10:21 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

Good point Dave... I hadn't even thought of that (Indonesian, my university topic, occasionally gives verbs "multiple objects" (or so it seems to western eyes I suppose), so I haven't thought about it much).

Henma, I was just about to mention "por ke", but you've done the honours okulumo.gif That seems workable, since we are talking about a goal, but we don't want the action to sound like the cat's, so we have to make an entire clause the object of por, no?

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 09:58:49 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

We would certainly say Ŝi petis min, ke mi X-u. There are several Zamehofian examples of this structure in NPIV.

So I think one could also say ŝi turmentis min, ke mi X-u .

As an alternative to 'turmenti' for 'pester' you might say 'ĝenpetegi'.

It is true that you can't say 'petis iun ion', you have to say 'petis iun pri io' or 'petis ion de iu'.

But you can't go from that to conclude that you must disallow Y-is min, ke mi X-u''.

Mi dankas vin, ke vi legis atente mian mesaĝon.

henma (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 13:41:37 Ngày 14 tháng 5 năm 2011

Thanks, sudanglo for your explanation, and the example with "peti".

Now I understand why the expression sounds weird to me.

When you say

ŝi petis min, ke mi X-u

The complete phrase is:

ŝi petis al mi tion, ke mi X-u.

But when we omit "tion", we can also change "al mi" with "min", because no other part of the sentence is marked with -n.

If I try to do the same with "turmenti":

ŝi turmentis al mi tion, ke mi X-u.

The sentence is wrong.

The problem is: both verbs are transitive, but in "peti" the object is what is being asked, but in "turmenti" the object is who is being tormented.

So, what is being asked via "turmentado" cannot be the object or a direct complement, but other type of complement, and needs a preposition.

ŝi turmentis MIN por tio, ke mi X-u.

notice that mi has to be the object, because the verb is transitive and who is tormented has to be an object, it cannot be marked with "al"

If I remove "tio":

ŝi turmentis min, por ke mi X-u

sudanglo:Mi dankas vin, ke vi legis atente mian mesaĝon.
Ne dankinde, sed... kial mi ne atente legus ies mesaĝon?? okulumo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.

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