johmue:

Chainy:

johmue:
No, not "jam" indicates that it was already done. It is the "-is" ending, that indicates that.

Ok, maybe I'm missing the point of 'mal-', but doesn't it indicate the direct opposite?

According to PMEG:

"Jam" signifas, ke antaŭe okazis ia ŝanĝo, ekz. ekesto de nova ago aŭ stato, ĉeso de ago aŭ stato, atingo de certa kvanto aŭ longo, kaj simile.

So, 'Jam' means that some kind of change happened earlier. What's the direct opposite of that? Probably that some kind of change DIDN'T happen.

So, you could logically argue that 'maljam' = ankoraŭ ne. Well, at least, I don't see why not.

"jam" means that something happened, happens, or will happen earlier than some defined point in time. So "maljam" means that something happened, happens, or will happen later than some defined point in time.

Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun.

Ĝi estos preta morgaŭ, ĉar mi jam faras ĝin nun.

I still don't see why maljam wouldn't mean ankoraux ne.
Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun.
Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi ankoraux ne faras ĝin nun.
Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi faros ĝin poste.
To me, these sentences all seem to mean the same, though worded differently.

Chainy:

johmue:
So "maljam" means that something happened, happens, or will happen later than some defined point in time.

oh dear, this is not helping me. 'Later than some defined point in time'? Do you mean 'after' (=post)?

johmue:
Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun.

So, the 'defined point in time' is presumably 'nun'.

No it's not. Extend the sentence:

"Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun kaj ne hieraŭ, kiel mi planis antaŭe."

So the defined point in time is the one the action was sceduled to at first ("hieraŭ"). "Maljam" indicates that the action happened/happens/will happen after this sceduled point in time. The "nun" in the sentence indicates that it happens now.

johmue:
Ĝi estos preta morgaŭ, ĉar mi jam faras ĝin nun.

Ok, this one makes sense. The idea of 'jam' emphasizes the fact that you you're doing it right now.

Yes. I am doing it now, which is earlier than I planned it to do (earlier than some defined point in time).

Hint for amemulo: mi ankoraŭ ne faros tion morgaŭ vs. mi maljam faros tion morgaŭ ...

johmue:Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun.

Ok, I know what you're getting at now. 'Ankoraŭ ne' indicates that it was expected that the thing would already be finished now by now. So 'maljam' emphasizes that you are indeed doing it now, but at a later time than was expected (but we already understand that it's 'later' than expected as soon as we read 'ankoraŭ ne')

Anyhow, could 'nur' cause any confusion in such a sentence?

And the problem I have with this is that the sentence you contrast this with, is not the direct opposite:

"Ĝi estos preta morgaŭ, ĉar mi jam faras ĝin nun."

- In this sentence 'jam' doesn't necessarily mean that 'it's happening earlier than some defined point in time.' "Jam" merely emphasizes the fact that you're doing it right now! Afterall, you could say:

"Mi jam faras ĝin nun, sed ĝi ne estos preta morgaŭ."

So, in this sense, you can't always conclude that 'maljam' should mean 'erst'.

amemulo:I still don't see why maljam wouldn't mean ankoraux ne.
[...]
To me, these sentences all seem to mean the same, though worded differently.

There are differences in their meanings:

"Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun." means I am doing it right now.

"Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi ankoraux ne faras ĝin nun." means that I have not done it so far and I am not doing it right now (but maybe later).

"Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi faros ĝin poste." means that I will be doing it later.

johmue:
No it's not. Extend the sentence:

"Ĝi ankoraŭ ne estas preta, ĉar mi maljam faras ĝin nun kaj ne hieraŭ, kiel mi planis antaŭe."

So the defined point in time is the one the action was sceduled to at first ("hieraŭ"). "Maljam" indicates that the action happened/happens/will happen after this sceduled point in time.

But does 'jam' always indicate that something happened earlier than expected? Yes, it can in certain circumstances, but I'm not so sure about always. "Jam" can just indicated that a change happened before the given point in time, but there's not always the idea that it's earlier than expected

Take this for example:

"Tio ĉi estis jam ne simpla pluvo, sed pluvego."

Chainy:But does 'jam' always indicate that something happened earlier than expected? Yes, it can in certain circumstances, but I'm not so sure about always. "Jam" can just indicated that a change happened before the given point in time, but there's not always the idea that it's earlier than expected

True.

Take this for example:

"Tio ĉi estis jam ne simpla pluvo, sed pluvego."

"Tio ĉi ne estis pluvego, sed maljam simpla pluveto.

As [url]PMEG[/url] states, we can use nur for ne pli frue ol, ne antaŭ, "not earlier than, not before"; with all these alternatives, I doubt whether we need maljam.

PMEG on that page uses the form enuziĝi, which I don't remember seeing before, but my opinion is that it means "to come into use".

I found this in the ReVo discussion list about 'maljam':

maljam?

One or two people were for the idea, but then others against it due to the difficulty in understanding.

It's definitely a tricky one. I think I like the idea of having a word for 'erst', but just not 'maljam'! It seems that the German word itself has been used by some.

Still, it is of course entirely possible to use standard Esperanto without any such 'erst' word. I can see it's important to German-speakers, but then us English speakers have to make do without our precious differentiation between 'by' and 'until'! Again, there are ways round this, just a matter of changing the sentence structure etc...

It's certainly difficult to get one's head around the idea of 'maljam' - there is no usage to fall back on.

I presume the discussion arose from a feeling of ambiguity about 'Mi povas vidi vin nur morgaŭ'

This could mean

1. I can't see you before tomorrow (but I can see you then)

2. Tomorrow is the only day I can see you.

But if context doesn't make this clear, aren't there plenty of ways of rephrasing to make the meaning clear without the head-achey use of 'maljam'?