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Kiel oni nomas 'Whirligig'

od NJ Esperantist, 01. junij 2011

Sporočila: 31

Jezik: English

ceigered (Prikaži profil) 02. junij 2011 09:04:17

Or shove -et onto the end ;P

NJ Esperantist (Prikaži profil) 02. junij 2011 10:53:33

erinja:I'd call them vent-ornamaĵoj.

Or to make it clear that they're for the yard, "ĝardenaj vent-ornamaĵoj"
I think we have a winner.

geo63 (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 05:14:09

NJ Esperantist:
erinja:I'd call them vent-ornamaĵoj.

Or to make it clear that they're for the yard, "ĝardenaj vent-ornamaĵoj"
I think we have a winner.
To be true, if I saw the word "vent-ornamaĵo" I would have no idea what it was (without reading this thread). Esperanto should be clear for foreigners - it is its purpose. Perhaps it would be better to check how these things are called in different languages and to choose a corresponding esperanto form:

Polish example - wiatraczek ogrodowy (ĝardena ventmuelileto)

My Collins dictionary says:

whirligig n.
1. any spinning toy, such as a top.
2. another name for merry-go-round.
3. anything that whirls about, spins, or moves in a circular or giddy way: the whirligig of social life.
4. another name for windmill (the toy).

Look at number 4.

vent-kirl-ludilo?

erinja (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 06:23:26

Maybe you didn't read the thread carefully but not all of those lawn ornaments are windmill-shaped.

At least in the US, they are much more diverse (birds, cars, fish, flowers, etc)

Therefore I wouldn't use the word "windmill" because it could be misleading. But if there were risk of confusion, you could say "rotacia ĝardena vent-ornamaĵo"

geo63 (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 07:10:47

erinja:Maybe you didn't read the thread carefully but not all of those lawn ornaments are windmill-shaped.

At least in the US, they are much more diverse (birds, cars, fish, flowers, etc)

Therefore I wouldn't use the word "windmill" because it could be misleading. But if there were risk of confusion, you could say "rotacia ĝardena vent-ornamaĵo"
Your proposal is good, but I would be confused. And Collins dictionary states clearly that whirligig is another name for a toy windmill - why should this be misleading? And for one it is "ornamaĵo" for others it could be "malbeligaĵo de la alimaniere bela ĝardeno".

I didn't use "windmill" (imprecision of English) but "ventmuelileto" which suggests that it is not a real working "muelilo", but some sort of a toy. It was only an example translation from Polish, not a proposal. We simply do not understand each other due to the language barrier, that's all.

And in your link they are called loan wind toys or wind spinners - so you use other terms - why there should be one term in Esperanto for all those things. Perhaps we should translate those terms into esperanto, because they are more informative to "ornamaĵo" (for me as a foreigner), which could be anything - even colorful paper hung around in the wind.

Miland (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 08:48:55

geo63:To be true, if I saw the word "vent-ornamaĵo" I would have no idea what it was (without reading this thread). Esperanto should be clear for foreigners - it is its purpose.
The problem is that a description or neologismo that contains all the information needed for full comprehension may often be too long to be practical. A shorter word that does not contain all the information, but is sufficiently memorable from the context, may be more suitable. Such "shorthand" may not have been foreseen by Zamenhof, but may be inevitable in practice. In my own example, I combined vent' and ornamo; the latter can mean "ornament", is slightly less precise than ornamaĵo, but is two syllables shorter. However I'm not bothered if some people prefer to add the aĵ suffix.

Here's another example: I'm sure you know what flugmaŝino means. But what would you reply if someone said "It is not obvious whether that is an aeroplane, a helicopter or even a rocket." Perhaps you would say "But helikoptero and raketo are in the dictionary." Well, maybe ventornam(aĵ)o will be there some day!

paulopolo (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 08:51:30

Assume that I'm in England and I want to buy
the wind driven sort which can also be described as kinetic garden ornaments.
as a forigner I know of course only word windmill.
So what I would say in the shop?

Do you have hmmm... very small windmills to the garden as a decoration?

So I prefer:
ventmuelileta ornamaĵo al ĝardeno

For whirligig as a general word I prefer:

kiĉornamentaĵoj kaj kiĉludiloj/etoj

sudanglo (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 09:59:01

I think, if you were in a shop in England and asked for a whirligig, you would have to provide some further elaboration. I don't think the term is well-known in the UK as some sort of wind-driven garden ornament.

I like the term ĝardena kiĉornamento to cover a wide range of things of that nature.

However giraĵo seems to me to capture in a single word the meaning of whirligig - thing that goes round and round - though I would expect to have to explain exactly what that was.

Kirli seems to me to be to strongly connected with the motion of fluids.

Rotacii has a technical, scientific flavour.

erinja (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 11:47:31

I get that scientific flavour that you mentioned with the root gir/, actually.

But if you went into a garden shop and asked for a rotational garden ornament, I think everyone would know more or less what you were looking for. A windmill -- maybe not. It sounds overly precise. They would assume you wanted a mini-windmill (because they sell those too, made of wood).

It doesn't matter whether those 'ornaments' are to your taste or not. Even an 'ornament' that you consider ugly is still meant to decorate someone's house or garden, so you can't say that it isn't an 'ornament' just because you don't like the way it looks.

geo63 (Prikaži profil) 04. junij 2011 12:27:33

erinja:...But if you went into a garden shop and asked for a rotational garden ornament, I think everyone would know more or less what you were looking for. A windmill -- maybe not. It sounds overly precise. They would assume you wanted a mini-windmill (because they sell those too, made of wood)...
And this is the matter of the language barrier. Languages do not differ only in gramar or words - they also differ in the ideas of things - in my language "wiatrak/wiatraczek" (a windmill) can be everything with wings that rotate, not just this big, wind powered machine that produces flour from wheat. For instance:

electric fan = wiatraczek elektryczny
whirligig = wiatraczek ogrodowy
gyroplane = wiatrakowiec

So I don't see the problem. It seems that you Americans understand "windmill" a bit narrow (differently to Polish people), but here we are talking about an esperanto term. Ornamentaĵo is OK, but too general in my humble opinion (the esperanto name should include a quick information: wind-rotate-ornament-garden) - and now I can't really figure out what it could be. I may think of these whirligigs, but I also may think of any wind toys people use in gardens (even a fence could be a "ornamentaĵo if it is painted in a fancy way). I still sugest to put the problem on international debate in esperanto section to get more open view, not just the narrow one related to anglophones.

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