Hey all,

A while back we had a discussion related to asking questions in the negative, e.g. "ĉu vi ne volas veni kun mi?" etc.

Perhaps an interesting extra input - in my Minna No Nihongo Japanese textbook, it mentions asking questions in the negative in Japanese (postive verbs = -masu, negative = -masen, questions = -ka, so "arimasuka" would be the normal question, and "arimasenka" would be a negative question).

（ありますか、ありませんか respectively）

The reason it gives for why we should care about asking questions in the negative is that it is a polite, or a softer way of asking a question, because you basically telling the listener or reader that you are prepared to accept a negative answer, and that you won't get upset by that, thus letting them know that they can give you a negative answer without fear of you bursting into a tantrum and destroying the world etc, making them feel more relaxed.

I thought it was an interesting explanation for the phenomenon, and perhaps some might like to consider that when speaking Esperanto, if they want to be creative in that way (for whatever reason).

My experience here in Japan is that asking 'negative' questions and the added politeness attached to it makes perfect sense to Japanese native speakers, and when they try to translate that sentiment into English when speaking to me, it often doesn't come across. Now and then I even think, "What is this person really asking me?" but remind myself that it's just a translation.

Eg. "Don't you want to sit down?" sounds a bit pushy to me. (I encounter 'don't you' questions fairly often). In English, to get that 'politeness filter' you talked about in your post, we usually go into the past tense (to give a feeling of 'distance' and thus respect), or use the conditional mood, or make up a longer phrase, or use 'please', and use the negative sometimes too. Sometimes we use a combination. Eg. "Would you like to take a seat?" ('would' is conditional, 'take a seat' is a long form of 'sit down'). Actually in this situation, the asker wants the listener to sit, so "Please take a seat," is perfect. In EO, "Bonvolu sidi" sounds jolly well polite. Any time I hear 'bonvolu' I get that feeling.

Another example "Won't you join me for dinner?" seems fine, if a bit posh and British-sounding. I don't think we'd hear it much in Australia. "Would you like to have dinner with me?" is more likely, with its conditional 'would'. "Join me for dinner" is also good, it doesn't really need a 'please'. In EO, umm: "Mi dezirus ke vi manĝu kun mi ĉivespere." "Ĉu vi (ne) manĝos kun mi ĉivespere?"

More examples:

- Tell me the time.
- Please tell me the time.
- What's the time? (not imperative, so a bit politer-sounding)
- Can you tell me the time? (this makes it into a question with an upward inflection at the end, which adds humbleness to the asker, as well as being a 'cue to answer' for the listener)
- Could you tell me the time? (past tense version)
- Would you tell me the time? (conditional version. If asked in shouty voice, it nullifies the politeness)
- Would you mind telling me the time?" (longer version)
- Would you mind please telling me the time? (seems too much, but I am sure it's used sometimes!)

Interesting. I guess a common theme there is that a lot of the questions are requests, or suggestions (e.g. asking someone to do something for their own benefit), where as English happily uses negative questions when asking about whether a statement is factual or not ("Aren't there any biscuits left in the biscuit barrel? Doesn't the cat eat much? Isn't it good to smoke 5000 cigarettes a day?").

That said, we Australians (and probably English speakers in general) seem to have a complex as far as politeness goes - some of us thing sounding polite is poncy, some of us think sounding polite means you're a good person (a status-seeking mindset almost), and some of us don't know what to say .

I had no idea they asked things like "Don't you want to sit down" in Japanese though, when asking you to sit down (although to my English ears it doesn't sound pushy, it sounds more like they're asking why you're still standing up or why you don't look comfortable sitting). (then again, I'm what, 1st year Japanese? Clearly I'm no expert ).

Anyway, I think Esperanto as far as commands, requests and suggestions for the benefit of others (all those "please do XYZ" ones) would probably match the "English" system. But I'm wondering if it'd be OK to ask about facts (like the bikkie barrel one) in negative form?....

ceigered:I had no idea they asked things like "Don't you want to sit down" in Japanese though, when asking you to sit down (although to my English ears it doesn't sound pushy, it sounds more like they're asking why you're still standing up or why you don't look comfortable sitting).

Whenever I'm in a Japanese restaurant and the people sit at the floor rather than on chairs, I can't sit crosslegged and still get my knees under the table. I must look a bit odd, because someone always asks me, "Aren't you uncomfortable?" (Rather than "Are you uncomfortable?") Whatever answer I give, they can then say that it's ok to stretch out etc. It seems pretty polite, in that context.

But I'm wondering if it'd be OK to ask about facts (like the bikkie barrel one) in negative form?....

Ĉu ne restas iu biskvitoj en la biskvitujo?

3rdblade:

But I'm wondering if it'd be OK to ask about facts (like the bikkie barrel one) in negative form?....

Ĉu ne restas iu biskvitoj en la biskvitujo?

Mmm... Sounds fair to me when I'm not the one writing it... Sounds as if you're subconsciously telling the speaker that you've already checked the biscuit barrel and are asking to confirm that you've got the right facts without making it sound like you want them to check themselves.

(e.g. "Are there any biscuits left?" "I dunno check yourself!").

3rdblade:Whenever I'm in a Japanese restaurant and the people sit at the floor rather than on chairs, I can't sit crosslegged and still get my knees under the table.

I can imagine myself having that problem. Is it common for Europeans? Those table seem very small!

The main problem with negative questions is the answers...

There is a section in PMEG dedicated to this. There are different ways to answer a negative question in the world.

For some, the answer to a negative question is the same they would give if the question was not negative.

Aren't there any biscuits left?

Yes (there are)
No (there aren't)

For some people, on the other hand, the answer is reversed, and answering affirmatively is confirming your negation, and answering negatively is to negate the negation (which is kind of logical).

Aren't there any biscuits left?

Yes (there aren't)
No (there are)

Amike,

Daniel.

Polish language (as far as I know Russian also) is frequently using negative questions in the same manner as the Japanese - to be polite:

Czy nie zamkniesz okna?
Will you not close the windows?

Czy nie przyszedłbyś do mnie?
Would you not come to me?

The English sentences are word-to-word translations, not how it should be said in English.

These sentences are kind requests to do something. Of course, we can measure very precisely the level of politeness, but that is another story...

geo63:These sentences are kind requests to do something. Of course, we can measure very precisely the level of politeness, but that is another story...

So if they're saying it sarcastically then they probably aren't being polite?

But I can see English parallels with the politeness problem - for example, many times I go to write in polite language in an email, I stop myself as it feels, if the other person reads it with the wrong voice in their head, as if I am being rude or arrogant...

RE the yes/no response, that is always going to be a hard issue unfortunately - thank god for context

ceigered:RE the yes/no response, that is always going to be a hard issue unfortunately - thank god for context

It can be a bit of a nuisance! Especially, like the others have said, different cultures answer it differently. Nowadays I'll avoid simpler answers, and say something more concrete, like, "La biskvitujo? Ne, ĝi estas malplena." I.e., doesn't matter too much if I'm yesing or no-ing exactly right, but the answer's clear.

ceigered:So if they're saying it sarcastically then they probably aren't being polite?

Let's say we want someone to leave the room:

Czy nie zachciałby pan opuścić pokoju?
Would you not mind leaving the room?

Czy nie wyjdziesz z pokoju?
Will you not leave the room?

Nie wyjdziesz, łachudro?
Get out, you son..tch