henma:I don't think we are being thrown away... We are only being asked to write our messages at least with an English translation, and to respect the rules and the 'lernu-teamanojn'.

Thanks, Henma. I was just beginning to worry that again I did something wrong and Erinja had enough of me (after all she could, I will have to try harder to write as simply as I can to avoid English traps that offend people - but how am I supposed to learn the language without using it? You can't find that knowledge in books - and I hate reading books in English, sorry )

geo63:... I will have to try harder to write as simply as I can to avoid English traps that offend people -

It is not a scoop for us (Esperantists) that English has many traps and that natives have more right to feel offended than others (may be some expressions can give some people the feeling of being rejected when they are only asked politely to respect the rules).

But it is an opportunity for us to look closely at this phenomenon, in order to better explain it to opponents of esperanto.

erinja:I encourage everyone who has a complaint about the English forum to go and use the Esperanto forum.

It's true that this forum has strayed a long way from its intended purpose of helping beginners, and perhaps we should redirect these long discussions to more appropriate parts of the lernu site (such as the Esperanto forums).

I think that the suggestion of Sudanglo may help beginners, allowing them to speak about topics which interest them, when progressing in the language...

So I will propose to continue this discussion here.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to suppose that a bi-lingual forum using both English and Esperanto would attract considerable interest.

I wonder whose palm has to be crossed with silver to get the English forum split into a rigidly English only forum and a bilingual version.

As Henma correctly pointed out, there's nothing stopping you from posting in Esperanto to this forum. ... so long as you include an English translation.

This seems more than reasonable to me. This site offers plenty of space for Esperanto-language conversations.

henma:But there are rules about the languages to use in forums, and about obeying when asked to translate the messages.

Oh indeed, it'd be rude not to translate or at least mention that you can't translate but would wish to still post in the English language forum for whatever excuse, if someone asked you to. I think though that the idea being floated around here is that maybe we can not bother enforcing that rule until someone actually asks, and otherwise promote bilingual discussion even on these here nacilingvaj forumoj.

If someone has a genuine interest in an Esperanto passage, they can ask for translation. An idea anyway.

I refuse to make beginners ask for a translation of a text in the forum that is meant to be in their own language. Sorry. No dice, ceigered. Go to the Esperanto forum if you want to write in Esperanto and not include a translation. It's very simple.

Geo63, you say you don't speak English well, and that may be true (i.e., that you don't SPEAK it well); I have no way to judge. However, and this may come as a surprise to you, you actually WRITE English quite well. And I think that THAT may be the problem that you are encountering here in the English forums.

You write well enough that I think the native English speakers are taken by surprise when you say something that they perceive as being aggressive or offensive or insulting or etc. (and I believe you when you say you don't mean those things). Your writing is good enough that (I think) we native speakers unconsciously assume that your command of English is better than it actually might be, and that you actually mean what you are saying (fully understanding how it would be heard).

With all its idioms and words with unexpected connotations, English definitely can be a minefield for non-natives. I think we (the native speakers) ordinarily are pretty forgiving when reading things written by people whose command of the language is obviously not that good. But you are in an uncomfortable middle-space, where you really are good enough to make us think you are fluent (or nearly so), but not quite good enough to avoid the mines.

Anyway, I think you are going to keep running into these misunderstandings until your command of English nuances catches up with your command of the language itself. Certainly those of us who have gotten to know you a bit better through your posts should give you the benefit of the doubt. I think that you, too, need to understand that sometimes we WILL misunderstand you because you have inadvertently said something that... well... sets off one of the mines, and give us the benefit of the doubt when we don't realize that, and react in a way that you didn't intend. Everyone needs to toughen their skin a little.

And judging from your level of English, I think if you keep at it, your understanding of the sometimes subtle English quirks will certainly not elude you forever. You aren't as far from becoming an excellent speaker (or, at least, writer) as you seem to think. You just need a bit more practice, with feedback.

RiotNrrd:...You write well enough that I think the native English speakers are taken by surprise when you say something that they perceive as being aggressive or offensive or insulting or etc. ...

... partly, but also the fact that he's a cosmonaut in outer space. Byline photos have a remarkable effect on people's perceptions of 'what the words 'really' mean'. If there was a photo of him as a smiling computer science teacher I guarantee people would not misinterpret his meaning so much.

Well, I hope that robots are judged kindly.