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Why the new roots when perfectly adequate E-o words already exist....

Polaris, 2011 m. birželis 24 d.

Žinutės: 55

Kalba: English

ceigered (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 08:07:42

3rdblade:
ceigered:I disagree greatly.
For example, what is the opposite of malgaja?
... Is it 'gaja'?

Ah, I'm just crankin' ya! okulumo.gif
Malvia mesaĝo malne malestas malredaktita maltiam okulumo.gif Malbonvolon!

erinja (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 08:22:44

I think you meant to say "liva", ceigered, not "leva" (levi = to lift or raise)

Malgaja is used. I've used it myself. It's the opposite of happy and cheerful; perhaps I'd use the English word "morose". I use it when talking about moods, because to me, "gaja" also refers to a sort of mood.

I only really see the kurt/ root in compound words, like "kurtonda" (as in short-wave radio).

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For crisps (UK) or chips (US), I hear the word "ĉipsoj" a lot. I use it myself! The s somehow made it in there. I am not sure where the word originated but I didn't make it up myself. I think that the recommended "terpomflokoj" seemed a little bit ridiculous. There was a previous thread in this forum on the topic; you can read it here.

I usually say frititaj terpomoj for chips (UK) or french fries (US).

ceigered (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 08:29:18

erinja:I think you meant to say "liva", ceigered, not "leva" (levi = to lift or raise)
Whoopsies! Thanks for that, al la redaktilo denove!
Malgaja is used. I've used it myself. It's the opposite of happy and cheerful; perhaps I'd use the English word "morose". I use it when talking about moods, because to me, "gaja" also refers to a sort of mood.
Ah, yes, certainly. I sometimes use it too but to mean "upset", not "sad" (trista), which is what I was trying to say. Mi estas malgaja ĉar mi ne povas bonkomuniki hodiaŭ, sed mi ne estas tiel malgaja ke mi estas trista (is that the correct way of saying "not so upset that I'm sad"?)

And morose is a cool word, thanks for that

sudanglo (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 10:53:26

Polaris, I think the thing about near synonyms like olda/maljuna, hospitalo/malsanulejo in Esperanto is that it is pretty much the same as with near synonyms in English. They don't have quite the same semantic scope or usage.

I would agree with Erinja's point about olda being somewhat disparaging or jokey, and that you go to a hospital when you have had an accident or are wounded, not just when you are sick.

By the way, when we get to the point of having road signs in Esperanto it might be more useful to stick up an H rather than an M.

The ultimate question is what sort of language do you want Esperanto to be. Do you want it to be a 2nd class citizen in the world unable to readily distinguish between a kliniko, lazareto, and a sanatorio?

For unsophisticated international communication we already have broken English. Why reinvent the wheel?

sudanglo (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 11:09:14

On the subject of dark moods, let's not forget, 'morna', 'sombra', 'moroza' and 'melankolia' in addition to 'trista'.

Miland (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 11:11:23

Polaris:When did it become acceptable..?
Some people use neologismoj (e.g. which avoid mal) for poetic effect. I have heard that William Auld favoured olda - whether for poetic or more personal reasons, I do not know.

It may be that some people use a neologismo intending a special meaning. Perhaps this is what bothers people - that their users are laying an additional and unnecessary burden on learners. But I am not sure that such special meanings will become established intenationally.

The debate about neologismoj is never-ending, because it is a question of balance in deciding whether circumstances merit their use. The subject is hotly debated even among experienced Esperantists.

Personally I wouldn't worry about it. We can always use affixes like mal- whenever it's convenient.

bertilow (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 14:14:00

geo63:Hospitalo appeared when some users of esperanto claimed that malsanulejo (sanigejo) was not recognized internationally.
That's what most people think, but it's not true. Actually "hospitalo" existed before "malsanulejo" was put into use. This all happened very early in the history of Esperanto, so both are very old words (1890-1900 or so), but "hospitalo" is the older of the two. So strictly speaking "malsanulejo" is a neologism!

And, I should add, they are synonyms. Don't believe any dictionary that tells you "hospitalo" has a narrower meaning. In actual usage they have exactly the same meaning.

Miland (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 14:20:56

bertilow:"malsanulejo" is a neologism!
Ĉu vere? I thought it was just a compound word mal-san-ul-ej-o. rido.gif

It depends, of course, on whether neologismo is interpreted to include combinations of roots that haven't been used before, as well as new roots.

bertilow (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 14:31:36

Miland:
bertilow:"malsanulejo" is a neologism!
Ĉu vere? I thought it was just a compound word mal-san-ul-ej-o. rido.gif

It depends, of course, on whether neologismo is interpreted to include combinations of roots that haven't been used before, as well as new roots.
Indeed it depends on how you define the terms. But I did use the English word "neologism", not the Esperanto word "neologismo". It seems they have quite different meanings (at least when where talking about Esperanto).

kaha (Rodyti profilį) 2011 m. birželis 24 d. 15:19:53

I support the use of liva, cause the set {dekstra ; maldekstra} is a concept from a predominantly right-handed point of view, centred on the right. For people that point of view is centred on the left (lefthanders), it's very usefull to have an other manner to describe the world, that fits what they feel from a left-handed point of view.

More linguistically, a lot of language have 2 words for 1 concept. As in English: liberty and freedom. fraternity and brotherhood...

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