ceigered:Well, malsana doesn't mean "ill/sick", it just means "unhealthy" doesn't it? Ergo hospital etc. Which makes me wonder though, how does one say "sick" (but not "not-in-health, which could include anything from a stomach-bug to missing an arm)?

"unhealthy" = nesana
"sick" = malsana

MAL- is antonymic, not negative.

Polaris:Arrrrggghh! When I first started learning Esperanto, I learned that "hospital" was "malsanulejo"--which makes perfect sense. I also learned that "old" was "malnova" (the opposite of new---again, perfect). However, the longer I am involved in the movement and reading contemporary Esperanto, the LONGER the list of new words gets--even when perfectly good words already exist.

I realize that all languages evolve and develop over time. I can see the need for a language to adapt to new concepts. Slang "chic" expressions are a part of any living language, and I have no problem with that. But I was just reading an article in which "hospitalo" was used for hospital---uh, I thought we already HAD a word for that. AND WHAT'S WITH "OLDA"?!?!?!?!?! Even if they didn't like the words "malnova" or "maljuna", OLDA? If they want to speak English, then they should speak English--not tweak Esperanto to MAKE it English...

Okay, I'll get off my rant, now, but can anybody explain what's going on here? When did it become acceptable to just disregard what's already established in the language and just throw in whatever you want?

Skribu nur en Esperanto. Transiru je la portalo: Cxu Internacia Unio estas bona au malbona en esperanto.

Please translate your message into English, since this is the English forum.

But Bertilow, saying that Germans would come up with the meaning of 'ambulanco' as 'outpatients department' is just like saying that English Esperantists would come up with the meaning of fart (furzi) for 'farti'.

The Germans, just like anybody else, are under an obligation to know which meanings Esperanto has adopted for words of similar spelling or sound.

NPIV doesn't register 'ambulanco' as 'outpatients department', and my guess would be that 'ambulanco' in modern texts is statistically overwhelming used for the veturilo - though as this is a question of fact, I could be proved wrong.

sudanglo:But Bertilow, saying that Germans would come up with the meaning of 'ambulanco' as 'outpatients department' is just like saying that English Esperantists would come up with the meaning of fart (furzi) for 'farti'.

More of less (although in one case it's the same word - etimologically, and in the other case it's just a chance resemblance).

Anyway, my comment was not intended as a (strong) argument, just as an interesting piece of information. It is however important to keep in mind how different the meaning of international words can be in diffenent languages.

Actually German does have the meaning "field hospital" as well for "Ambulanz", but I'm not sure how common that meaning is in actual usage nowadays. Maybe even Swedish has that meaning for "ambulans", although it's unknown to me.

We're getting off-topic...

patrik:

ceigered:Well, malsana doesn't mean "ill/sick", it just means "unhealthy" doesn't it? Ergo hospital etc. Which makes me wonder though, how does one say "sick" (but not "not-in-health, which could include anything from a stomach-bug to missing an arm)?

"unhealthy" = nesana
"sick" = malsana

MAL- is antonymic, not negative.

I do already know that . But what is the opposite of "healthy"? Unhealthy (sick is a specific type of health-state which doesn't necessarily equal the exact opposite of healthy, does it? Although it's a bit hard to say what exactly sick means - there are some unhealthy people I wouldn't call sick. Sick is more "my immune system is down", than "I've broken a leg", but both are "unhealthy". Sana seems to mean "nothing is wrong, be it my immune system or my leg")

So, in this case Esperanto is being quite vague. I think in effect "malsana" and "nesana" mean close to the same thing, since the idea of "malsana" is basically as broad as "nesana".

---

I don't think "malsana" is quite an important topic of debate though, since you can clarify what ailment you've got by saying "my leg is broken/my head hurts/my stomach has been gouged out by a tiger/I have asthma" etc.

As for things like "trista" though, it becomes useful to have a range of emotions you can express, and "trista" isn't covered at all by any "mal-" construction (unless it's malmaltrista?).

And then there's an unrelated argument that simply having separate words is good for clarity, but that's a different beast of a debate. Mi nuntempe ne volas iri tien kiam mi estas nekirasa

ceigered:.. what is the opposite of "healthy"?.. I think in effect "malsana" and "nesana" mean close to the same thing, since the idea of "malsana" is basically as broad as "nesana".

This is a good philosophical point, and your reasoning sounds like that of St. Augustine:

"In the bodies of animals, disease and wounds mean nothing but the absence of health; for when a cure is effected, that does not mean that the evils which were present--namely, the diseases and wounds--go away from the body and dwell elsewhere: they altogether cease to exist; for the wound or disease is not a substance, but a defect in the fleshly substance" (Enchiridion, chapter 11).

Now St. Augustine did not know about germs, which perhaps can be seen as a rival life-form to the human body, unwelcome invaders with their own life. Cancer cells could be seen as a warped "Taleban" in the same way. So infections and cancers perhaps deserve to be regarded as a true malsano in the sense of being a kontraŭ-sano. Traumatic injuries or degenerative illnesses may be another matter, but can we be sure, just because no micro-organism has been found?

We also need to take into account established usage. I didn't find nesana anywhere in the tekstaro. Possibly a niche for nesana could be carved out, but malsana may do the job just as well, maybe with qualifying phrases if it is a matter of feeling only a little unwell.

Personally I prefer malsanema for "unhealthy", in the sense of being in poor health generally. Quite a few hits in Tekstaro for that.

Also I think malsana is pretty clear in meaning "sick", so I don't really see vagueness there. I certainly don't recall any kind of misunderstanding arising from use of these terms.

Indeed, malsana isn't very much worth debating I guess - there's not a gigantic need to have the distinctions that things like emotions or morality need. "Malsana" (the opposite of healthy) + symptom/cause should be enough no doubt - just as we say "I have a cough/I have sore stomach" in English.

However, I'd like to think that the non-symmetry of "malsana = sick" might be worth taking into account with more worthy cases like that emotional one "trista". Surely we've all been "malgaja" in much more interesting ways than simply "unhappy"? Do experienced Esperantists here use "trista"? I plan on using it regardless, but might be interesting to see what community habits are anyway!

@ Tommjames, I never thought about that before, that unhealthy is use more often to describe those sorts of dispositions where as "sick" describes single instances more. I've learnt something new about the English language, for whatever reason .

ceigered:However, I'd like to think that the non-symmetry of "malsana = sick" might be worth taking into account with more worthy cases like that emotional one "trista". Surely we've all been "malgaja" in much more interesting ways than simply "unhappy"?

This comment reminds me of what older folks used to say when the word 'stress' became more widely used in English, to describe a kind of unhealth that has since gone on to become pretty widespread nowadays. "What's 'stress'? We never had that in our day!" Stress is an odd one, because while stressed metal should be replaced, stressed people generally just need a rest, then they can bounce back.

I think context will help with everything. If you look poorly and you tell someone that you feel malgaja, they'll either know why, or ask why. I can't really see the difference, but still, what's your take? Trista = depressed, melancholy, burdened?