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Clarification...

viết bởi EldanarLambetur, Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

Tin nhắn: 10

Nội dung: English

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:04:23 Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

I think quantities have just messed with my head...

I find myself thinking a while about translations to do with quantities now. I wanted a quick clarification. In order to translate the following sentence:

"Do you have enough paper?"

Does one say:

"Ĉu vi havas sufiĉe da papero?"

or:

"Ĉu vi havas sufiĉan paperon?:

And why?

Thanks!

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:28:21 Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

Both are correct. The first is correct because sufiĉe is used here as if it were a substantive, although sufiĉo, "sufficiency", is not used in practice; see PMEG (section "O-vorteca uzo").

The second is correct because sufiĉa, "sufficient", is used as an adjective to describe what follows.

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:38:20 Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

I see, and do both convey exactly the same meaning as well as being correct?

For me it feels like the first one is talking about generally enough (pieces of) paper (sufiĉe da papero), whereas the second one could also mean a sufficient paper (e.g. some particular paper perhaps with certain things on it that you might need).

Is this just my imagination, are they the same? I think the thought might have been put in my head from the last paragraph on that PMEG page and in the course I'm working through that seems to make this kind of distinction between adjectives of quantity and adverbs of quantity.

Miland (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 15:47:05 Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

I would say that both convey the idea of "enough". Whether the context would include a special kind of paper would be a separate question altogether.

So, for practical purposes, I would say that there is no distinction.

Bear in mind that Esperanto was primarily designed to be an international language for practical purposes, not a tool for philosophy or linguistics (though there are participants on the forum who have studied these subjects).

geo63 (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 16:07:24 Ngày 24 tháng 6 năm 2011

EldanarLambetur:...whereas the second one could also mean a sufficient paper (e.g. some particular paper perhaps with certain things on it that you might need)
.
Ĉu vi havas propran paperon?
Ĉu vi havas ĝustan paperon?
Ĉu vi havas paperon bezonatan de mi?
Ĉu vi havas la paperon, kiun mi bezonas?

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 12:04:12 Ngày 25 tháng 6 năm 2011

I think that in Esperanto 'papero' can be used to refer to sheets of paper (viewed as a block) - though it is perfectly possible to pluralize 'papero'.

So, imagining that someone were going to print out a long text on your printer, I think you would ask 'ĉu estas sufiĉe da papero', although really the issue concerns a sufficiency of sheets of paper.

In the production of newspapers on the other hand all the paper is on one great roll, and then there would be no strangeness in referring to 'sufiĉe da papero'.

The distinction that you have in mind Eldenar, doesn't arise readily with things that are only countable, when the plural form is naturally used - eg sufiĉe da homoj.

With things that are rarely countable, like 'amo', I can't see at the moment any possible distinction between 'sufiĉe da amo' and 'sufiĉa amo'. In that case the difference in usage would be stylistic, I think.

Edit: if you want to drive a distinction between X-a Y-o and X-e da Y-o-(j) I think it would have to be along the lines that with 'da' one is definitely talking about quantity, with the adjective one is ascribing a quality. In the case of sufiĉo this may amount to the same thing.

sudanglo (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:22:38 Ngày 25 tháng 6 năm 2011

If the question is, can 'sufiĉa' be used in the sense of 'adequate' in quality - not in quantity (the entry in NPIV under ne-sufiĉa suggests it might), then perhaps one could imagine a case where sufiĉe da would not be right but sufiĉa would be.

My feeling, however, is that one would naturally be more explicit, saying sufiĉe bona, sufiĉe taŭga, etc.

Mia amikino trovis mian amon tute ne-sufiĉa?

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:31:17 Ngày 25 tháng 6 năm 2011

EldanarLambetur:I see, and do both convey exactly the same meaning as well as being correct?

For me it feels like the first one is talking about generally enough (pieces of) paper (sufiĉe da papero), whereas the second one could also mean a sufficient paper (e.g. some particular paper perhaps with certain things on it that you might need).
The way I interpret "sufiĉe da" is sort of like "do you sufficiently have (LEFT OUT: a quantity/amount/sum) of paper?", where as the other one is "do you have sufficient paper?".

So any differences you perceive in English should be the same in Esperanto, only in Esperanto sufiĉe da is much shorter. As to why it exists despite some skipping of some words (to an English speaker mind), is probably because we know "da" has the meaning of "of a quantity", so we don't feel like we need to specify what sort of quantity (if we did, I guess it'd just be "ĉu vi havas sufiĉe sumo da papero", or "ĉu vi havas sufiĉan sumo da papero". I wouldn't know though).

ceigered (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 14:35:53 Ngày 25 tháng 6 năm 2011

sudanglo:If the question is, can 'sufiĉa' be used in the sense of 'adequate' in quality - not in quantity (the entry in NPIV under ne-sufiĉa suggests it might), then perhaps one could imagine a case where sufiĉe da would not be right but sufiĉa would be.

My feeling, however, is that one would naturally be more explicit, saying sufiĉe bona, sufiĉe taŭga, etc.
I don't think it'd necessary lead to being explicit depending on the situation. Like, if the thing you need to be sufficient can be made sufficient in a number of ways (e.g. improved in quality, increased in quantity), I think there's no need to clarify further.

After all, if it leads to the same end result and doesn't have any negative side effects, no problems?

EldanarLambetur (Xem thông tin cá nhân) 21:19:07 Ngày 25 tháng 6 năm 2011

Thanks for the useful help guys!

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