German-speaking Esperantists would definitely understand ĉu mi povas havi xxx? as a request to be given xxx.

Miland:But you could always try Ĉu mi havu X? with non-Anglophone Esperantists, and see if it works, and report your findings here!

As darkweasel said... Spanish-speakers would also understand that you want that somebody gives X to you. We wouldn't understand 'mi havis X' as 'I ate X' though.

By the way, Polaris... The worst part of '¿puedo tener un popote?' is that, besides not understanding the question as a request for something, in most (Spanish-speaking) countries they would not understand what you want to have . The names for 'a straw' vary a lot from country to country... 'popote' is a Mexican word (according to the dictionary). In other places it would be 'una pajita', 'una pajilla', 'un pitillo'.

Amike,

Daniel.

Miland:

geo63:(a) Is a question possible in imperative mode? (b) What does it mean?

(a) Yes; (b) it is a request. Ĉu ni iru al la kafejo? "Shall we go to the cafe?" See PMEG (26.3, second box, last example).

A request to myself?

Ĉu mi iru al kefejo?

One must be polite indeed...

darkweasel:German-speaking Esperantists would definitely understand ĉu mi povas havi xxx? as a request to be given xxx.

No wonder, English and German are both related, as Polish-Russian. "Ĉu mi povas havi X-on?" - I would understand as: somebody has taken X without asking and now he asks for permision to keep it. And that is something different.

henma:By the way, Polaris... The worst part of '¿puedo tener un popote?' is that, besides not understanding the question as a request for something, in most (Spanish-speaking) countries they would not understand what you want to have . The names for 'a straw' vary a lot from country to country... 'popote' is a Mexican word (according to the dictionary). In other places it would be 'una pajita', 'una pajilla', 'un pitillo'.

Amike,

Daniel.

Thank you, Daniel. Being from the United States, nearly all of my Spanish-speaking friends are Mexican, so my Spanish tends to be Mexican Spanish. As I believe you've discussed before, Spanish spread over such a broad geographical territory that words for things change from country to country. Rather than being put off by those changes, I think it makes things more fun and interesting.

People tend to think that what's natural in their native languages will surely work in other languages. Since English (and possibly other languages as well) allows "I had a cup of tea", they'll automatically say "Mi havis tazon da teo" in Esperanto. Instead of "Bonvolu alporti al mi buŝtukon", an English-speaker would probably say "Ĉu mi povas havi buŝtukon?" (for "can I have a napkin?") without giving it a second thought. Yet neither of these sentences would be correct if "havi" works more like a stative verb showing ownership (as "tener" does) rather than working like "to have" in English.

Maybe it doesn't really matter. Maybe there is a broad margin of tolerance in Esperanto for L1 incursions and it's not really an issue. I'd just like to know, particularly from experienced Esperantists who are familiar with good style and contemporary usage, what is correct and acceptable.

Polaris:Maybe it doesn't really matter. Maybe there is a broad margin of tolerance in Esperanto for L1 incursions and it's not really an issue. I'd just like to know, particularly from experienced Esperantists who are familiar with good style and contemporary usage, what is correct and acceptable.

Sudanglo:...terms in different languages may occupy different semantic territory, but an Esperanto term doesn't have to have the same application as in Englsh. It will have its own semantic scope.

Many people think that to learn a foreign language it is enough to learn the grammar and vocabulary. Well, it is not. One must also master the scope of words the language uses. And this could be quite tricky... If two languages are close together (like English and German) the scope may overlap. If they are far away (like English - Polish/Russian/Chinese/Japanese/Korean) the scope may be different for each language.

Esperanto verbs mean what they mean, and let them stay that way - otherwise esperanto will be as difficult as English is.

(Give something good to people and they will surely spoil it with the flow of time)

geo63:(c) A request to myself? (d) Ĉu mi iru al kafejo? (e) One must be polite indeed...

(a) Yes, if someone is inviting you to go with them (Ĉu ni iru..).
(b) Yes, if you want to!
(c) Konsentite! Just look at the arguments that start on the forum, when people aren't careful about this.

Miland:

geo63:(c) A request to myself? (d) Ĉu mi iru al kafejo? (e) One must be polite indeed...

(a) Yes, if someone is inviting you to go with them (Ĉu ni iru..).
(b) Yes, if you want to!
(c) Konsentite! Just look at the arguments that start on the forum, when people aren't careful about this.

As I see you are very obstinate. Why do you keep writing this? I understood the first time, no need to litter the thread.

geo63:

Miland:

geo63:(c) A request to myself? (d) Ĉu mi iru al kafejo? (e) One must be polite indeed...

(a) Yes, if someone is inviting you to go with them (Ĉu ni iru..).
(b) Yes, if you want to!
(c) Konsentite! Just look at the arguments that start on the forum, when people aren't careful about this.

As I see you are very obstinate. Why do you keep writing this? I understood the first time, no need to litter the thread.

I think he might be saying for the benefit of any beginners reading

Unless you're joking, in which case damn the internet and the inability to read ones tone of voice!

ceigered:

geo63:

Miland:

geo63:(c) A request to myself? (d) Ĉu mi iru al kafejo? (e) One must be polite indeed...

(a) Yes, if someone is inviting you to go with them (Ĉu ni iru..).
(b) Yes, if you want to!
(c) Konsentite! Just look at the arguments that start on the forum, when people aren't careful about this.

As I see you are very obstinate. Why do you keep writing this? I understood the first time, no need to litter the thread.

I think he might be saying for the benefit of any beginners reading

Unless you're joking, in which case damn the internet and the inability to read ones tone of voice!

He is 100% right. That is final. What I am not sure about is this:

Ĉu ni prenu la kafon? - We (a couple of people) are asking ourself if we should have coffee (or making proposal [forget the marriage - that is not what I mean here ] to other members of our group). We are not asking anybody else for permission to do that. All is within our group.

So it is logical that

Ĉu mi prenu/havu la kafon? - I am asking myself for permission (or making a proposal to myself), but not anybody else. All is about me. What a waiter has to do with it in a restaurant? On his place (as a waiter) I would answer:

se vi volas, prenu/havu la kafon, sed ĝi ne estos senkosta ĉi tie.

If ĉu mi prenu/havu X? is asking somebody else for permission or for giving that X to you, then it is very weird way to do this through the first person in imperative mode. That is exactly what I don't agree with.
Think about it...