Beiträge: 33
Sprache: English
Polaris (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 15:47:35
consumption: ("I'm going to have a glass of juice" or "Did you have a piece of cake?")
acquisition: ("Can I have a straw?)
That works for English, but not all languages use their equivalent for "to have" quite so loosely. For example, In Spanish, I would never use the verb "tener" (to have) for the above two concepts.
It would sound bizarre to go into a restaurant and say to the waitress "¿puedo tener un popote?" (which, translated word-for-word, may mean "can I have a straw?", but scarcely makes sense---sort of like saying "am I able to be in possession of a straw?" or "am I able to hold a straw?". And "tener" is never used as a verb of consumption in Spanish, either.
So my question is this: is "havi" a lot like the English verb "to have"? Or is it more restricted in Esperanto to being a stative verb of ownership, such as the Spanish verb "tener"? Would it sound strange in Esperanto to say "cxu mi povas havi alian kuleron?" for "can I have another spoon?" or "Mi havos deserton" for "I'm going to have dessert"? I know that they sound natural to those who speak English, but are they really correct (or stylistically acceptable) in Esperanto?
geo63 (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:41:52
Polaris:...So my question is this: is "havi" a lot like the English verb "to have"? Or is it more restricted in Esperanto to being a stative verb of ownership, such as the Spanish verb "tener"? Would it sound strange in Esperanto to say "cxu mi povas havi alian kuleron?" for "can I have another spoon?" or "Mi havos deserton" for "I'm going to have dessert"? I know that they sound natural to those who speak English, but are they really correct (or stylistically acceptable) in Esperanto?havi -> ownership
can I have another spoon? - bonvolu doni alian kuleron al mi.
havi altan prezon
havi bonŝancon
havi deziron
havi esencon
havi feliĉon
havi hegemonion
havi kontakton kun
havi multon por fari
havi muŝon en la cerbo -> be mad
havi naturon
havi okazon
havi originon
havi pezon
havi plezuron
havi rajton
havi reputacion
havi rilatojn
havi superfluon
havi tempon
havi tempon por ludi
havi utilon
havi vaporon en la kapo -> be drunk
Miland (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:43:57
But you could always try Ĉu mi havu X? with non-Anglophone Esperantists, and see if it works, and report your findings here!
geo63 (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:48:15
Miland:But you could always try Ĉu mi havu X? with non-Anglophone Esperantists, and see if it works, and report your findings here!It works barely. I think that the other option is much better.
ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:49:50
Polaris:It would sound bizarre to go into a restaurant and say to the waitress "¿puedo tener un popote?" (which, translated word-for-word, may mean "can I have a straw?", but scarcely makes sense---sort of like saying "am I able to be in possession of a straw?" or "am I able to hold a straw?". And "tener" is never used as a verb of consumption in Spanish, either.I think this would still make sense in Spanish, but it'd sound broken, no?
But in Esperanto I can imagine that usage being valid. After all, English actually phrases this sort of question in a rather "international" sort of way - using simple concepts, with a relatively simple idea of polite requesting (using "can" as a "softener"). Perhaps such phrase exists in English simply because during the colonial times, during coinages like "look-see", people from the colonies had no idea how to say "Can I have X", so they literally asked if it were physically possible for them to have it, being polite and allowing the listener (perhaps an arrogant colonial ruler) the choice of determining whether the laws of the universe allowed this inferior being to have what they asked for (rice, water, straws, whatever).
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Miland's suggestion of "preni" seems practical as well.
ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:51:07
Miland (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:55:52
ceigered:Would something like "Ĉu vi ankoraŭ feliĉos se mi prenus X-on?" work BTW, for those craving precision and politeness?Actually ĉu mi prenu X may be just fine. The credit for using the verb preni itself really belongs to you, amiko!
geo63 (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 16:59:21
ceigered:But in Esperanto I can imagine that usage being valid. After all, English actually phrases this sort of question in a rather "international" sort of way - using simple concepts, with a relatively simple idea of polite requesting (using "can" as a "softener").I still recomend "doni" in such situations, because "havi" is bound with possession in esperanto. English "to have" has a lot of different uses.
Ĉu mi havu X-on? (I must think what this person want)
Bonvolu doni X-on al me (I immediately know what he/she wants)
In Polish we do not use "to have" for such meaning, instead we use "to receive"
Can I have a spoon? -> "Czy mogę dostać łyżkę" -> "Can I receive a spoon?"
BTW: Is a question possible in imperative mode? What does it mean:
Ĉu mi prenu X-on?
ceigered (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 17:19:23
geo63:I still recomend "doni" in such situations, because "havi" is bound with possession in esperanto. English "to have" has a lot of different uses.Good point, and I think I sense a pot of worms about to be opened
Ĉu mi havu X-on? (I must think what this person want)
BTW: Does the imperative mode have questions? What does it mean:
ĉu mi prenu...
Bonvolu doni X-on al me (I immediately know what he/she wants)
I guess it depends on ones culture, or even personal habits - "please give me X", if I were to say this I would feel as if I am acting very familiar and as if I had a right to take it, where as "can I have" is if I don't feel I have a right to have something, or I don't believe I deserve something.
For instance, if a friend lends me something or gives me something, I would say "can (actually, I'd say "could" to make it even more polite) I please (I don't think this can work the same way in Esperanto) have/borrow X".
So "ĉu mi povus havi X-on".
Although, I guess to members of much more straightforward cultures (so probably not English, Chinese or Japanese
), it'd be irritating to be asked such a round-about question.I guess the idea is that according to Zamenhoffian etiquette we should be doing less taking and more giving...
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As for "Can I receive", I wonder if that can work well in Esperanto? In English that sounds sort of presumptuous, as if you're saying "well, you're giving it away anyway, can I have it". Man, the more I think of these things, the more I feel like English is very similar to Japanese as far as formalities go, with all the round-about tiptoeing so noone gets offended
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@ Miland - Oh, thankyou! I don't remember doing anything so credit worthy, other than being a bit of a prenanto
. Miland (Profil anzeigen) 25. Juni 2011 17:34:10
geo63:(a) Is a question possible in imperative mode? (b) What does it mean?(a) Yes; (b) it is a request. Ĉu ni iru al la kafejo? "Shall we go to the cafe?" See PMEG (26.3, second box, last example).