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Help me to do...

door EldanarLambetur, 25 juni 2011

Berichten: 8

Taal: English

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 25 juni 2011 23:16:15

I'm looking to translate something like this:

"She helped him to understand it"

I've seen people do it two ways, and I wondered if they were both correct, and if they mean the same thing. Or if neither are!

1. Ŝi helpis al li kompreni ĝin
2. Ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin

To me at first the second sentence makes more sense, since "helpi al mi" seems weird, after having seen so many examples of sentences where the helped individual is the direct object with "n" rather than getting "al".

But then it looks like the verb has two direct objects with "kompreni"...

Help? ridego.gif

februaro (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 00:07:13

EldanarLambetur:I'm looking to translate something like this:

"She helped him to understand it"

I've seen people do it two ways, and I wondered if they were both correct, and if they mean the same thing. Or if neither are!
1. Ŝi helpis al li kompreni ĝin
2. Ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin
Claude Piron ja skribis ĝuste pri tio!
The other internationally-used languages act like dictatorships: they require the speaker to put a thought into words using this structure, and not that other one. For example, it is a mistake to say in English he helps to me, while in German, "he helps to me" (er hilft mir) is the only correct form, as it is in Russian (он мне помогает); in French, to use either the English or the German structure, therefore to say il aide moi or il aide à moi, is to expose yourself to ridicule. The fact that in Esperanto, you can say equally li helpas min (English structure), li min helpas (French structure) or li helpas al mi (German and Russian structure), gives a sense of freedom in expression of thoughts, which in my opinion is more respectful of the principles of democracy. The less rigid the structures, the more you avoid the risk of making a mistake, and submitting yourself to mockery or to a feeling of inferiority.

horsto (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 00:46:07

EldanarLambetur:
2. Ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin

But then it looks like the verb has two direct objects with "kompreni"...

Help? ridego.gif
Of course Claude Piron is right.

But also have a look here in PMEG.

Either lin can be seen as an abbreviation of al li or kompreni ĝin can be seen as an abbreviation of pri kompreni ĝin.

Therefore this sentence is correct and the usual way to express this idea, but also sentence 1 is correct.

Polaris (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 02:47:49

Let's look at this again...

Even in English, if I were to say "She helps him understand it", the word "him" would be the subject of the infinitive "to understand" (granted, we write it in the objective case, but English just does that) and the word "it" is actually the object of that infinitive. Therefore, that entire infinitive phrase "him understand it" is the object of the verb helps.

Now, transfer that to Esperanto--- Sxi helpis (subject verb) {lin kompreni gxin} (entire phrase as object of helpi). So don't worry about having two objects---they're not both direct objects of the same verb---one is the object of the infinitive.

ceigered (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 03:45:59

Then there's always the round-about way to do it with nouns!

"Ŝi helpis lian komprenadon".

There is a slight difference in meaning though, after thinking about this beforehand - "komprenado" here means that he could have been already understanding before hand, and been thinking about the matter for a while, and she only just pushed him over the final obstacle.
But still useful when you're like me and forget what language you're speaking and what its rules are.

sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 11:46:38

The 'it' in 'She helped him understand it' is somewhat ambiguous.

Is the meaning 'ŝi helpis lin kompreni tion' or the more specific 'ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin'?

Miland (Profiel tonen) 26 juni 2011 12:49:46

EldanarLambetur:I wondered if they were both correct, and if they mean the same thing..
1. Ŝi helpis al li kompreni ĝin
2. Ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin
They are both correct, and mean the same thing. A reference is Kalocsay and Waringhien's Plena Analiza Gramatiko section 177.2(a). Some verbs can occur in a sentence with objects which may be either direct or indirect, but the meaning of the sentence does not change. The preposition al has the same meaning and role as the accusative ending -n.

:"helpi al mi" seems weird
This is only a matter of getting used to it. As a spymaster said to a spy in disguise who said that he didn't quite feel like the person he was playing, "That will change, believe me!"

:..it looks like the verb has two direct objects with "kompreni"...
Not so. The object of helpi is only the person being helped, whether you use the accusative or al to indicate this. Kompreni is not an object here, but it has as an object the thing being understood.

EldanarLambetur (Profiel tonen) 27 juni 2011 16:16:39

Thanks for all the help!

sudanglo:The 'it' in 'She helped him understand it' is somewhat ambiguous.

Is the meaning 'ŝi helpis lin kompreni tion' or the more specific 'ŝi helpis lin kompreni ĝin'?
In the actual example "it" was something else slightly longer, which I just got rid of for the sake of simplicity, since the confusion was in the other bit.

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