Сообщений: 30
Язык: English
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 11 июля 2011 г., 21:11:41
I think that there are aspects of word order in Esperanto that haven't been fully investigated by the grammarians, but the patterns are there in the literature.
The old propaganda motif that 'la vort-ordo estas libera' needs to be seriously qualified.
henma (Показать профиль) 11 июля 2011 г., 23:54:23
sudanglo:Ceiger, I don't know why 'la junulino ĉarma invitis min danci' sounds wrong, but it does.For me, the order is not relevant... I use to write 'adjective noun' only because it's pretty common, and maybe a certain influence of my other non-native language (English).
I think that there are aspects of word order in Esperanto that haven't been fully investigated by the grammarians, but the patterns are there in the literature.
The old propaganda motif that 'la vort-ordo estas libera' needs to be seriously qualified.
But for me, la junulino ĉarma or la ĉarma junulino are exactly the same.
In some sentences it sounds better to me the order 'noun adjective' (influence of the order in Spanish).
For instance, 'mi loĝas en la domo granda' sounds more normal to me than 'mi loĝas en la granda domo'. Maybe because 'la grande casa' is incorrect in Spanish, and 'la gran casa' can mean something different than 'la casa grande' ('gran' is normally understood as 'great', more than 'big').
I do think that the word order is really flexible in Esperanto... even when there are preferred orders, there is no problem (at least for me) to understand alternative orders.
Amike,
Daniel
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 12 июля 2011 г., 8:53:23
Whilst the tendency for the adjective to precede the noun is already well established in the older sources, this appears to have become much more the norm in the 'moderna lingvo' reaching 96.4% for AN versus 3.6% for NA.
He concludes that AN is the neutral form and for NA there are always special reasons - he gives five.
So that it isn't just my lingvosento, Daniel, that makes me prefer Mi loĝas en granda domo over Mi loĝas en domo granda, as a simple statement of fact.
ceigered (Показать профиль) 13 июля 2011 г., 13:12:58
orthohawk (Показать профиль) 13 июля 2011 г., 16:43:49
Kateno:I'm a natural spanish speaker. In spanish there isn't obligatory order for adjetives and substantives, but in my experience, you shall place all adjetives together after or before its substantive, or the sentence will be unpleasent to read.Isn't there some kind of understood order for "correctness", though? In English, if we have a number, color and size, the order is NSC. it sounds ( to me) very stilted (if not just wrong) to use any other order. E.g. 3 big blue cars is OK, but not big 3 blue cars
erinja (Показать профиль) 13 июля 2011 г., 17:24:47
ceigered:Yeah but that doesn't making it "wrong", just "special"/"uncommon"It doesn't make it wrong. But it would likely make the listener think that you are trying to add special emphasis, when you aren't.
And if you did this consistently, it would make you sound "Special", but in a negative sense!
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 14 июля 2011 г., 10:41:41
I think however that it must be close to the same logic we use in English as I have never noticed whilst reading (in Esperanto) an order which strikes me as bizarre.
Without a great deal of reflection on the matter, I would suppose it is something like this.
La X-aj, Y-aj Z-oj = la Y-aj Z-oj kiuj estas X-aj.
La Y-aj, X-aj Z-oj = la X-aj Z-oj kiuj estas Y-aj.
So la grandaj Parizaj bulvardoj is a normal order - la Parizaj grandaj bulvardoj would require a context in which you are just considering the Parisian ones of all the grandaj bulvardoj.
However when the adjectives do not restrictively define a class of the noun, then the order is not critical.
Then I think the analysis is la Z-oj kiuj estas kaj X-aj kaj Y-aj.
La bela, klara voĉo de S-ro Jones = la klara, bela voĉo de S-ro Jones.
ceigered (Показать профиль) 14 июля 2011 г., 11:04:09
erinja:But the idea of something being wrong tends to make some people go "oh, that's unallowed/evil", and could give some learners the impression that the original phrase that we were talking about was incomprehensible to an EO speaker.ceigered:Yeah but that doesn't making it "wrong", just "special"/"uncommon"It doesn't make it wrong. But it would likely make the listener think that you are trying to add special emphasis, when you aren't.
And if you did this consistently, it would make you sound "Special", but in a negative sense!
mnlg (Показать профиль) 14 июля 2011 г., 11:50:53
sudanglo:I think however that it must be close to the same logic we use in English as I have never noticed whilst reading (in Esperanto) an order which strikes me as bizarre.Indeed English does have an order; you may not, for example, say "the red sports italian car". As far as I know, however, this is not true in Esperanto.
Additionally, I have no problem with adjectives being placed after the noun they refer to. There is someone I occasionally speak with who tends to arrange the adjectives so that sometimes one of them comes after the noun (e.g. "la bela lingvo itala"). All I can say about this is that it is unusual, but I have no grounds to say that it is wrong or against the norm (it is to be said that in Italian this arrangement is somewhat frequent, so I am used to it; however the person I am talking about is not Italian). After all, Esperanto itself is something quite unusual in its own context! On the contrary, I appreciate (and even encourage) the idea of finding your own way of expressing yourself, as long as you make the proper effort to be understood.
darkweasel (Показать профиль) 14 июля 2011 г., 12:51:01
mnlg:Indeed English does have an order; you may not, for example, say "the red sports italian car".Because according to my understanding, in English "sports car" "sports" is not an adjective but the first part of a compound.