Příspěvky: 30
Jazyk: English
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 13:35:01
Other examples would be bus stop and railway station.
This forbids 'Railway Ramsgate Station' (Ramsgate Railway Station), and 'Bus First Stop' (First Bus stop)
mnlg (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 14:05:01
darkweasel:Because according to my understanding, in English "sports car" "sports" is not an adjective but the first part of a compound.Fair enough. You still can't say "british red big car". There is an order that you have to follow. According to a web page I just found, the order is Opinion, Dimension, Age, Shape, Colour, Origin, Material. As far as I know there is no such order in Esperanto.
Miland (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 16:03:05
mnlg:You still can't say "british red big car". There is an order that you have to follow.. As far as I know there is no such order in Esperanto.This raises some very interesting questions:
(a) Is there any convention in Esperanto about the order of adjectives that is commonly followed, even if it is not stated in grammars as a rule?
(b) Is there an order commonly found in European languages (not just English), which the convention follows?
In PMEG (section 7.1.1, subsection Antaŭpriskriboj, 1st para, 2nd sentence), we have (I translate): "A noun can have more than one adjective preceding: tiuj dek grandaj nigraj Hindaj ĉemizoj. We then normally put the more general adjectives first (grandaj) and the more special ones later (Hindaj)."
That may be the nearest thing to a rule in Esperanto. It is not equivalent to the rule for English, because the later categories wouldn't necessarily be more specialised or cover a smaller number of cases, than the earlier ones. There might be two types of material, and many types of opinion!
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 22:30:41
You still can't say "british red big carAnd the same restriction applies in Esperanto.
Brita ruĝa granda aŭto would not be the normal order - rather, granda ruĝa Brita aŭto.
henma (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 22:49:02
sudanglo:Why not?You still can't say "british red big carAnd the same restriction applies in Esperanto.
Brita ruĝa granda aŭto would not be the normal order - rather, granda ruĝa Brita aŭto.
X: mi havas grandan ruĝan aŭton.
Y: ĉu germana aŭto?
X: ne, ĝi estas brita granda ruĝa aŭto.
Amike,
Daniel.
sudanglo (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 23:11:35
And, of course, the natural reply would be not to repeat the granda and ruĝa, but just to say that it was Brita.
mnlg (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 23:20:25
sudanglo:Brita ruĝa granda aŭto would not be the normal order - rather, granda ruĝa Brita aŭto.That is true for English. However, I would kindly ask you to provide a reference for the abnormality in Esperanto.
I can see why it "sounds strange" to you, but that doesn't make it not normal.
RiotNrrd (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 23:30:32
sudanglo:The difference is that the Esperantist would automatically take a moment to rearrange it, and then would understand it. The typical English speaker would likely just look at you funny and say "huh?".You still can't say "british red big carAnd the same restriction applies in Esperanto.
Brita ruĝa granda aŭto would not be the normal order - rather, granda ruĝa Brita aŭto.
As to the question of a "default" order for adjectives, my guess - and it is JUST a guess, that I'm totally willing to be wrong about; I'm not making any assertions of any sort about how it ought to be, here, just what I'm generally seeing - is that the default order for adjectives in Esperanto likely in practice mirrors the order in (remember: just a guess based on my experience, which is imperfect at best, and I'm not saying that it should be this way or any such thing)... English.
Some people try to mix it up a bit, of course, and Esperanto readily allows it. But generally, and with many exceptions, the order I most commonly see in Esperanto is the same as I am used to seeing in English, often even when the writer isn't a native English speaker.
3rdblade (Ukázat profil) 14. července 2011 23:36:32
henma:I believe the reason for this is that we like to put the adjectives in order of how much they impress us. Size-shape-colour is a usual one. A car's 'bigness' is more immediately noticeable and impressive to a viewer than its colour. Its Britishness is more of an intrinsic thing which we don't 'notice' before the other factors of size, shape, colour. I think the same logic works in Esperanto. Putting the 'British' first would be because one wants to emphasise that point. Eg:sudanglo:Why not?You still can't say "british red big carAnd the same restriction applies in Esperanto.
Brita ruĝa granda aŭto would not be the normal order - rather, granda ruĝa Brita aŭto.
"Oh, a British big red car!"
"Ho, brita granda ruĝa aŭto!"
"She has long, straight, black hair."
"Ŝi havas longan, rektan, nigran hararon."
ceigered (Ukázat profil) 15. července 2011 13:48:14
darkweasel:But we wouldn't say "the italian red car" (normally anyway).mnlg:Indeed English does have an order; you may not, for example, say "the red sports italian car".Because according to my understanding, in English "sports car" "sports" is not an adjective but the first part of a compound.
Reshuffling the order is only really done when we want to clarify statements by adding information to them but keeping roughly the same order as what they had so the listener can hear the exact difference, e.g.
A) "Which car's yours? The red car?"
B) "The Italian red car, not the japanese red car. I though I told you I racistly hate all non-European things?"
(B had an accident in his childhood that crippled his ability to love anything non-European involving tofu and a pair of sandles. It was an incredibly unique accident, evidently. As a result, it's hilarious to see the complex faces he pulls while in countries like American and Australia that don't fit into his mental paradigm.
He also feels naughty whenever he looks at his neighbour's Mazda6 with slight interest).