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When gxi is not used, do adjectives modify infinitives?

kelle poolt Polaris, 12. juuli 2011

Postitused: 13

Keel: English

Polaris (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 15:24.20

Okay, I KNOW that I ought to know this by now, but I need a little help. Please look at the following sentence:

"La sono de la vokalo 'i' kaj la konsonanto 'j' samas, kaj pro tio, estas malfacila distingi inter ili."

Translation: "The sound of the vowel 'i' and the consonant 'j' is the same, and because of that, it is hard to distinguish between them."

This had to do with someone suggesting we make the word vi plural by adding j in a theoretical discussion, but that's not what I'm concerned about here.

What I need to know is, since the word ĝi is not used here (for "IT is hard..."), should the word "malfacila" have been "malfacile"? Or is it correct to leave it "malfacila" since it's modifying the infinitive "distingi"? Which is correct?

henma (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 15:32.32

Polaris:Okay, I KNOW that I ought to know this by now, but I need a little help. Please look at the following sentence:

"La sono de la vokalo 'i' kaj la konsonanto 'j' samas, kaj pro tio, estas malfacila distingi inter ili."

Translation: "The sound of the vowel 'i' and the consonant 'j' is the same, and because of that, it is hard to distinguish between them."

This had to do with someone suggesting we make the word vi plural by adding j in a theoretical discussion, but that's not what I'm concerned about here.

What I need to know is, since the word ĝi is not used here (for "IT is hard..."), should the word "malfacila" have been "malfacile"? Or is it correct to leave it "malfacila" since it's modifying the infinitive "distingi"? Which is correct?
It should be 'malfacile', because it's modifying the infinitive 'distingi'.

If you rephrase it as:

'distingi inter ili estas malfacile'

it's easier to see that you are describing a verb, so you need an adverb.

I would also change 'sono' al 'sonoj', because you are talking about two sounds okulumo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.

darkweasel (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 16:15.15

henma:because you are talking about two sounds okulumo.gif
Actually not...

henma (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 16:17.32

darkweasel:
henma:because you are talking about two sounds okulumo.gif
Actually not...
He said 'la sono de ... kaj ...'

It doesn't have any sense to talk about only one 'sono' kaj poste diri 'samas'... It should be 'la sonoj de ... kaj ... samas'

If I am not seeing something, please explain malgajo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.

darkweasel (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 18:38.06

henma:
darkweasel:
henma:because you are talking about two sounds okulumo.gif
Actually not...
He said 'la sono de ... kaj ...'

It doesn't have any sense to talk about only one 'sono' kaj poste diri 'samas'... It should be 'la sonoj de ... kaj ... samas'

If I am not seeing something, please explain malgajo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.
Well, in my opinion exactly because these sounds are the same, they're only one sound. However, of course this is unnecessary harfendado and you may be right about the plural form of the noun.

Miland (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 18:54.20

henma:It should be 'la sonoj de ... kaj ... samas'
+1

Actually I wouldn't say that they have the same sound; the terminal -j seems to me to be shorter than i. So I would put it "La sonoj de la vokaloj 'i' kaj la konsonanto 'j' similas, kaj pro tio, estas malfacile distingi inter ili."

tommjames (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 19:40.53

You use the plural when you're talking about more than one thing. So the question here is are we talking about one thing or more than one thing?

Personally I think both interpretations are valid. It could be thought of as a single sound that belongs to both letters (single in the sense that it's one sound that is the same for each of them). Or it could be two separate sounds belonging to the letters individually, and their sameness is irrelevant. It seems to me just a matter of perspective, so like darkweasel I think this is unnecessary harfendado.

However I agree that the sounds are not actually the same, making the plural the better choice here.

Polaris (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 20:55.36

henma: It should be 'malfacile', because it's modifying the infinitive 'distingi'.

If you rephrase it as:

'distingi inter ili estas malfacile'

it's easier to see that you are describing a verb, so you need an adverb.

I would also change 'sono' al 'sonoj', because you are talking about two sounds okulumo.gif

Amike,

Daniel.
Thank you, Daniel--I'm sure you are correct about the "malfacile" part. To be honest, it still seems (to my English-grammar saturated mind) that it should be an adjective because the infinitive acts as a noun. Even in the example you gave, the infinitive is the subject or your sentence. Sin embargo... (sigh) I realize that different languages do it differently, so what flies in English may crash in Esperanto. ridulo.gif

As to the word sono, while the sound of the I and of the J may differ when the J is used in an initial or a medial position, it is the same in a final position after a vowel. There would be no appreciable difference between vi-i and vi-j (if such words existed).

But even if that were debatable, I meant "the sound of", not "the sounds of", so I'll stand by my choice on that one. I'm talking about the sound (singular) of two letters that seem (to me) to have the same sound.

tommjames (Näita profiili) 12. juuli 2011 21:52.10

Polaris:To be honest, it still seems (to my English-grammar saturated mind) that it should be an adjective because the infinitive acts as a noun.

I realize that different languages do it differently, so what flies in English may crash in Esperanto.
Yes. In Esperanto it's simply down to grammar, that infinitives must be described by an adverb rather than an adjective. That an infinitive might "act as a noun" is just a semantic thing which in Esperanto has no importance, unlike perhaps in English or other languages.

On the other side of the coin one might reason that "tio estas facile" is valid, if "tio" stands in for an infinitive or phrase. But the correct form is actually "tio estas facila", simply because according to the grammar a noun must be described by an adjective, regardless of what "tio" represents semantically. That example actually came up in one of the Esperanto forums recently, here.

Polaris:I meant "the sound of", not "the sounds of", so I'll stand by my choice on that one. I'm talking about the sound (singular) of two letters that seem (to me) to have the same sound.
I think you're right to, provided your phrase is talking about those cases where the sounds are indeed the same, or at least seem to you to be.

erinja (Näita profiili) 13. juuli 2011 1:46.12

It's actually simpler than it looks, in my opinion.

If it were to be treated as a grammatical noun in Esperanto, it would have been given a noun form.

That would be, "distingado inter ili estas malfacila" instead of "distingi inter ili estas malfacile"

Or in the original context, "...kaj pro tio, estas malfacila distingado inter ili." (but clearer word order would be "...kaj pro tio, distingado inter ili estas malfacila")

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