Mesaĝoj: 21
Lingvo: English
feargster (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 11:44:35
Anyway, I've found myself subconsciously using a German-type word order when using Esperanto - presumably my brain equates that with language learning or something. Which leads to my question - would speakers from different countries use different word order in esperanto, reflecting their own native languages? Would Hungarian speakers, say, use it noticably different from English ones?
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 12:33:37
feargster:would speakers from different countries use different word order in esperanto, reflecting their own native languages? Would Hungarian speakers, say, use it noticably different from English ones?No, not that much. One's accent is usually more evident than the incidence of native preference in word order. SVO, with adjectives preceding nouns, is pretty much what everyone sticks to.
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 13:59:38
The additional complicating factor is that people do vary word order from the norm to add emphasis, so if you speak with any old word order (which you are perfectly within your rights to do), you lose the ability to add nuance to what you're saying by changing around the word order a bit.
feargster (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 15:33:53
erinja:Esperanto word order is flexible, so it would certainly not be wrong to use German word order. But as mnlg notes, there is a standard. If you want to speak in the most common way, English will be a better guide than German (though not in 100% of cases).Interesting. I suppose it's the sort of thing that rather than learning the 'right way', the more you use the language and settle into it, the more you develop a feeling for what seems right.
The additional complicating factor is that people do vary word order from the norm to add emphasis, so if you speak with any old word order (which you are perfectly within your rights to do), you lose the ability to add nuance to what you're saying by changing around the word order a bit.
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 17:58:47
feargster:Yes and no. There is no "right" word order. It merely seems that a standard has settled in. Even though you might get a few quizzical looks if you keep using a different order, nobody would ever be entitled to tell you that you are "wrong". And there are always ways to add emphasis, regardless of the word order, both in writing and speech, so don't worry.erinja:you lose the ability to add nuance to what you're saying by changing around the word order a bit.Interesting. I suppose it's the sort of thing that rather than learning the 'right way', the more you use the language and settle into it, the more you develop a feeling for what seems right.
feargster (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 18:47:32
mnlg:Yes and no. There is no "right" word order. It merely seems that a standard has settled in. Even though you might get a few quizzical looks if you keep using a different order, nobody would ever be entitled to tell you that you are "wrong". And there are always ways to add emphasis, regardless of the word order, both in writing and speech, so don't worry.Yes, I know what you mean. I'm not worried about it, just interested.
All the ki- words (kias, kiu, kiom...) on the other hand...
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 19:49:01
feargster:All the ki- words (kias[/color], kiu, kiom...) on the other hand...Beeeeeeeeeeeep!
feargster (Montri la profilon) 2007-junio-30 20:39:33
mnlg:See what I mean?feargster:All the ki- words (kias[/color], kiu, kiom...) on the other hand...Beeeeeeeeeeeep!
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2007-julio-01 02:01:17
mnlg:There is no "right" word order. It merely seems that a standard has settled in.This is true, but it is also worth mentioning that this standard has existed pretty much since the beginning of Esperanto. If you look at the oldest Esperanto texts and literature, their word order looks pretty much like ours today. While alternate orders are also correct, our current most common word order was not exactly randomly fallen upon through common use. Zamenhof used this word order in his development of the language, and early Esperanto speakers and writers felt it was important to use Zamenhof's usage as a model. Today's Esperanto certainly has a lot of word usage and grammatical combinations that Zamenhof probably never dreamed of, so you should definitely not take away the lesson "If Zamenhof never did it then I shouldn't either". But the current most common word order does have a long history behind it and I personally think that's worth respecting.
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-julio-01 09:43:09
erinja:this standard has existed pretty much since the beginning of Esperanto.Fair enough, but it's not "right" any more than placing adjectives after their nouns is "wrong". Z did that, now most speakers don't, but I do not think that the overall respect for Z has been lost.
When my students use a different word order I never correct them. First because there's nothing to be corrected; secondly, because with time they wiill pick up the common order by themselves and use it. And if they don't, well, perhaps other speakers will find their idea interesting and the language will be enriched because of that.
If we were discussing deliberate violations of the 16 rules then I would see your point about respect (but I wouldn't necessary approve it, it's a matter of attitude more than action). There's little point in announcing joyfully that Esperanto gives freedom to its speakers because it has no fixed word order, only to accuse non-conformists of disrespect
