Postitused: 45
Keel: English
ofnayim (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 2:43.21
3rdblade (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 3:08.09
ofnayim:F--- in English is an intensifier. It adds a certain gravitas to one's conversation. I don't believe that in popular speech it is particularly shocking anymore, especially given its ubiquity in the cinema. To the extent that it is vulgar, it is because the term generally is substituted for more expressive language in popular speech.In the US it seems more common, thanks to US culture mainly, and movies as well. For me, I avoid it as much as possible nowadays (not so much when I was younger!), as do most native speakers I know. It adds absolutely no gravitas to any statement as you said (i.e. dignity, solemnity etc.), on the contrary it merely makes the speaker look more like a barbarian who doesn't care about social mores and thus seems more fearsome, which is the point. People who say it to me always come across as crude, and generally stop swearing after they realise I'm not reciprocating, i.e. am not impressed by their crudeness.
ceigered (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 6:18.53
Mustelvulpo:Is the word "fek" considered to have the same level of obscenity as f::* in English? I also wonder, do most languages have such words that are considered obscene in any context, even standing alone? Are there any that don't? I know there are people on this site who know a lot more about language than I do, so this thread gives me the perfect opportunity to ask.Sometimes you have superstitions about things, like tetraphobia in China (4 = sì, death = sǐ), that lead to things like buildings missing floors between 39 to 50, and the Chinese airforce numbering from 5 and not anything before.
A more mild western example is Triskaidekaphobia, which is a phobia of the number 13.
And in Afghanistan, apparently 39 is now a number you want to avoid, since due to various things including poor literacy, a superstition has grown that 39 is rude and to do with pimps etc. Look for it on wikipedia, sort of funny actually.
But it depends on who's calling what obscene. Some people consider a certain c-word in English to be the worst word ever - others consider it just a normal word. Those others would probably be called obscene, but is that their fault or societies for making such a weird swear word? (you could pretend you were speaking dialectal English and saying "count" (as in a nobleman). I used that excuse when my brother saw graffiti on a wall that had the proper c-word on it "They were trying to sound cool by calling themselves something like "Count Dracula").
ceigered (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 6:20.20
For the sake of all 3 of the Esperanto-learning children who come on here and learn a new word and then use it in front of their parents and are consequently grounded, let's keep swearing to a minimum lol.
Suzumiya:Okay, I will. Personally I do not consider wrong teaching a child swear words. I would do it so that they can fathom them, but I would tell them not to use them. Swear words are part of the language as well as idioms, and so they must be learnt, I believe.I agree, and I understand where you're coming from. I've had many debates with my parents about swearing, mostly because I act as the shield that takes all the flack when my siblings start saying words mum and dad don't like them saying
Thanks
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As for coarse language, I only find it coarse when used in a setting that it's not really suitable. I consider it "familiar language", just like using -kun/chan etc in Japanese to address a friend is considered familiar. Some people will be offended by certain words, so I choose not to use them with those people.
Others find it condescending if you don't swear in their company, like you're trying to be holier than them in a debatable way (good ol "is swearing actually bad simply coz we say it is" arguments), and so it's better to loosen up around them (some might argue that those people aren't worth hanging around simply because you don't use XYZ intensifier, I might argue that the same applies to them because they get offended by XYZ intensifier).
So, it's hard to draw a right/wrong distinction, I just treat everyone as unique case and determine whether I can get away with swearing with them or not.
sudanglo (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 15:08.21
Esperanto estas la ĝentila lingvo de la burĝa klaso.
Actually trying to shock or insult anybody effectively in Esperanto is really quite difficult. The more 'lerta' your attempt, the more your language is likely to provoke approval - eliciting compliments on your mastery of 'nia kara lingvo'.
Whenever the subject of foul language comes up, we hear the refrain 'but kiddies might be reading'.
Surely no child with any self-respect would waste his time on 'la ne-koheraj bavadaĵoj de la senokupaj marĝenuloj, kiuj malsprite elsputas siajn sen-enhavajn pensojn ĉi tie'.
You see what I did?
ceigered (Näita profiili) 17. juuli 2011 16:31.28
sudanglo:Sure no child with any self-respect would waste his time on 'la ne-koheraj bavadaĵoj de la senokupaj marĝenuloj, kiuj malsprite elsputas siajn sen-enhavajn pensojn ĉi tie'.Sorta - I'll need a translation for "bavadaĵoj" to appreciate it in verbatim
You see what I did?
But I agree. I think most "shocking" comments in Esperanto tend to use language that incites or invokes a bad reaction from the other party, e.g. by being condescending, or using exaggerations (I tend to offend people in English by using them accidentally).
Esperantists are more likely to be offended by a logical fallacy of something akin to godwin's law than they are by "fek'!" (because "fek" can be anything from "poop" to "Oh sh*t!".
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Speaking of logic problems, I'd disagree that children wouldn't waste their time on (big long phrase) people. My siblings would happily pick up bad habits, and they have too much self respect!
(The bad habits are sometimes from me though).
3rdblade (Näita profiili) 18. juuli 2011 0:38.39
ceigered:Others find it condescending if you don't swear in their company, like you're trying to be holier than them in a debatable way (good ol "is swearing actually bad simply coz we say it is" arguments), and so it's better to loosen up around them (some might argue that those people aren't worth hanging around simply because you don't use XYZ intensifier, I might argue that the same applies to them because they get offended by XYZ intensifier).I did a 1st-year linguistics course ages ago, and one of the theses of one of the lecturers was observing how Australian speakers tend to shift their dialect and coarseness depending on which social or socio-economic group they happened to be in at the time. Yes, we do do that often, and it's not just Australians! Politicians do it when they are on the stump, and it's always embarrassing to watch them.
During an Australian election last year, I believe one of the candidates was criticised for saying 'bulls--t' too much, the critics claimed it was an affectation to help win over the working class. His reply was that he usually talked that way. Hmm...
sudanglo (Näita profiili) 18. juuli 2011 12:09.40
ceigered (Näita profiili) 19. juuli 2011 10:45.57
sudanglo:Bavadaĵoj - drivellings, dribblings, droolings; take your pick, CeigerYum.. Cheers for that Sudanglo!
Sinanthiel (Näita profiili) 1. august 2011 7:25.25
Nicholas:I don't think "f*ck" is ever appropriate, as it is coarse language. The better phrase in English would be "what the heck".I completely agree with Nicholas.
The thing about profanity is, when you start using that language people automatically start thinking about how it's not appropriate for children.
Well, does it ever occur in people's minds that maybe it's not just inappropriate for children, but also offensive to other people?
I don't favour profanity because of my religion and the fact that it's not morally accepted.
Profantity in my eyes shows no purpose. I know a lot of people use it to intensify the feelings they are feeling at that time, but it's better to find words that aren't quite so offensive, and barbarous.
For me when people use vulgar language, it makes the person seem uneducated, and careless about the way it may offend others. When I speak to people, I try to choose my words carefully because I don't want to offend others.
There are words that can convey the same meaning in a less trashy way. Like saying heck, or crap when the S word might be used.
On another note, are there words for heck, crap, gosh, darn, etc. in Esperanto?