Sinanthiel:On another note, are there words for heck, crap, gosh, darn, etc. in Esperanto?

I saw "Ho ĉielo!" (roughly 'Good heavens!' or 'Goodness me!'; literally 'Oh, heaven!') in some old H.C. Andersen translations at gutenberg.org, when I was just starting out at learning EO. I have used it at my local rondo and I think they think it sounds quaint. But I like it, and it's got history.

Those English words you mentioned are all just polite ways of not saying something coarser, so I don't think they have equivalents, and we don't really need them anyway. Eg. Why the heck not? = Kial ja ne? 'Ja' is a good intensifier.

Piron used 'diable!' in Gerda Malaperis; the dictionary here translates it as 'darn'. I think he liked that expression. A literal translation I can't give you. 'Devil-ly' maybe?

But if you like, for an exclamation of frustration, how about, 'Aĥ, brasiko!' Why not?

Je la Barbo de Zamenhof! Don't you know that 'brasiko' estas tre maldeca fivorto.

On a less frivolous note , I think 'diable' has some currency as an intensifier.

Kion li diable faraĉas nun? What the :::: is he doing now.

When the world finally gets round to subtitling dramas on TV (foreign programmes), we will then need some way of representing cruder language in Esperanto.

"Diable!" (the devil!) is probably the most useful mild Esperanto profanity. Everyone will recognize it, and it's not overly offensive. But expressions like Aĉ!, Fi!, and Ve! are even milder ways to yell out your disapproval. You could definitely say "inferen!" ("to hell!") or "infere" as a relatively mild intensifier. A quick Google search turned up some usages like "infere malluma" ("dark as hell"), "infere doloras" ("hurts like hell"). So you can use that as an intensifier as well.

A word you might find useful when something goes wrong is "kaĉo". Therefore, instead of saying "Uh oh, we're in the sh:: now", we talk about kaĉo. It means porridge or mush (and you can definitely talk about eating "kaĉo"), but it is also used metaphorically to talk about being in a difficult situation, a complicated circumstance, being in a mess. It is not considered profane at all, in any context.

An Esperanto proverb: El la faraĉo fariĝis kaĉo. (From having done something bad, it becomes porridge; less literally, you get yourself into a mess if you misbehave)

I know lots of people who say "Damne!" ("Damn") which is less mild than what I mentioned above but still considerably below Esperanto's F-variants.

In general I think that if your true goal is to insult someone, it's easy to do it without using any profanities. No one would take it as a compliment to be called an "azeno" (donkey), for example. And if you want to seriously insult someone, if you're creative, you can come up with someone much more insulting without using profanities, than a person who uses profanities.

Having said this, I do make use of Esperanto's F variants and also of English's, but you need to know your audience, and it is never a bad thing to have a wide repertoire of inoffensive expressions of dismay, or of "family friendly" ways of insulting someone.

This thing with cursing is so meaningless. I used to curse to my grandparents, and they always lose their minds, that I would be that bold to even utter the "lord's name in vain". Anthony Burgess wrote an interesting book called "A Mouthful of Air", in which he cites the importance of foul language and its relation to historical poetry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Mouthful_of_Air

For me this fretting over curse words is like old grandma stuff. It may seem like you are doing the right thing to be familial and not curse, but really it just petty. Its purely symbolic 19th century stuff. Most kids know how to curse like pirates already.

The best non-swear curse Ive heard was a very short woman from the state of Maine who said "Kick a dead dog". Women in Maine are fierce. I really found that amusing.

About this movie Senmova, I watched it too, but didnt realize it was Turkish the first time. Turks everytime can surprise me and earn further respect. Now that I know its Turkish, I see a similarity to the style of Uzak, the darkness of it.

[url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_(film)] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distant_(film)[/url]

Novmik.... Tsk tsk tsk.

How could you be so disrespectful towards your grandparents to say the F word to them?

I can see now, that you obviously don't value respect, or see anything wrong with being so rude to your grandparents.

I've never ever said any kind of curse words to my parents, let alone my grandparents. I just don't see how you can justify the reasons why. I don't care how much you think it's not rude, or disrespectful, but your grandparents probably had their feelings hurt when you'd curse like a sailor to them.

I find cursing offensive, and it's not just out of respect for children, but other people as well. If you were around my sister in real life, and you were cursing in front of my nephews, she'd kick you out of her house. Her kids don't curse like pirates, they don't even say damn, or hell because they've learned good values, and respecting other peoples boundaries.

For a word or expression to be effective as swearing, its use in polite society must evoke disapproval.

However the Esperanto community is on the whole rather genteel, lacking in the cruder coarser type of fellow.

The language is therefore somewhat stunted in its store of 'colourful' expressions.

But there are some bodily functions, unmentionable body parts, or distasteful occupations or practices that reference to in many societies is considered not 'nice', and from that the non-medical Esperanto equivalents have some force.

But not much, as the necessary sociological stratum which would by association imbue such references with greater force is lacking.

Perhaps the equivalent of taking the Lord's name in vain in Esperanto is disrespectful references to Zamenhof.

The English language has a very rich collection of abusive terms for foreigners of various origins (Hun, Kraut, Fritz, Jerry, Frog, Dago, Wog, Chink, Nip etc), but such are the peculiar sensitivities of the Esperanto community that once I was admonished for referring to Fremduloj, instead of using the neutral term Eksterlandanoj.

sudanglo:Don't you know that 'brasiko' estas tre maldeca fivorto.

Brasiko? A bad word?

Sinanthiel:Novmik.... Tsk tsk tsk.

How could you be so disrespectful towards your grandparents to say the F word to them?

I can see now, that you obviously don't value respect, or see anything wrong with being so rude to your grandparents.

I've never ever said any kind of curse words to my parents, let alone my grandparents. I just don't see how you can justify the reasons why. I don't care how much you think it's not rude, or disrespectful, but your grandparents probably had their feelings hurt when you'd curse like a sailor to them.

I find cursing offensive, and it's not just out of respect for children, but other people as well. If you were around my sister in real life, and you were cursing in front of my nephews, she'd kick you out of her house. Her kids don't curse like pirates, they don't even say damn, or hell because they've learned good values, and respecting other peoples boundaries.

You would not like the part of the USA I live in. Here people curse and speak bad english. I find these conservative values a waste of life. That's what the USA is, a waste of life. Only suckers really live in the USA.

This incipient 1950s mentality is appalling. Your type of American reminds of the film "A Boy and His Dog" in which after an apocalypse, certain Americans hide underground in a weird world that simulates the 1950s but worse: they wear clown paint on their faces and behave in a more exaggerated manner. It has Jason Robard. Its quite funny. Underground, these conservatives run out of good genes from inbreeding and they have to go to the surface to find breeding specimens so they dont die out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0AX6ri9p6U&NR=...

You see the deranged Americans underground continue to copy the 1950s and even earlier dates of naivety even after nuclear holocaust, not just being American, but being someone else's idea of quintessentially American in a kind of underground hell world.

Americans are the vampires of hate, who feed of the hate of their enemies while they live underground wearing clown make up like 1950s assholes.

novmik:

Sinanthiel:How could you be so disrespectful towards your grandparents to say the F word to them?

I can see now, that you obviously don't value respect, or see anything wrong with being so rude to your grandparents.

I've never ever said any kind of curse words to my parents, let alone my grandparents. I just don't see how you can justify the reasons why. I don't care how much you think it's not rude, or disrespectful, but your grandparents probably had their feelings hurt when you'd curse like a sailor to them.

CULTURE CLASHNESS!

If I may - it all really depends on what someone's grandparents actually think about the word. Or their parents. And gender differences might play a part.

For example, many guys my age have sworn at their parents before, and half of them are quite intelligent, kind, nice people. I've said the F word to my parents before, sometimes (albeit rarely due to the presence of children in the house) in good humour, sometimes (once again, rarely) when I'm very peeved. Vice-versa too (I learnt it from somewhere after all, other than friends). If it's deemed unacceptable due to the general mood, depending on how gratuitous it is, etc, then we apologise, make up, get over it (technically it's a big debate in our household, since I tell my parents off for telling my siblings off for swearing gratuitously, since I think the reason why they swear is worth more critical attention than the words themselves, where as my parents care more about the swearing at their age - fun times! - I still think my "cut the serpent's head off" strategy is best though)

Now, for my grandparents, they certainly wouldn't like hearing the F-word, but everything under it (shit, crap, bastards, bitch, and I'd add bugger but in Australian speech, EVERYONE (and their dogs/babies according to various Toyota ads) says it), they could tolerate and say on occasions but with a hushing of their voices. One thing I noticed is that if they here their grandchildren swearing they're rather forgiving/accepting etc, which I see as being part of their greatness, able to accept the change in times, the change in vocabularies (although they'll still rant on about how kids these days are too loose with their mouths saying "F F F F F" all the time).

But obviously Sinanthiel in your family things work different. Words have different connotations. But in my family, it's the same things - some things you say/act in your family would be, well, probably not offensive but considered weird by my family (they're rather accepting people unlike the more combative me).

And Novmik's family probably acts entirely different. There might be valid reason for any conflict, real or imagined in his family (judging by how I read your earlier comment novmik). He might swear for a point. He might not. His problems/non-problems/life in general.

So yeah. We all have our own situations, our own families, our own ways of doing things! Otherwise no amount of EO-happy-and-fun-harmony crap is gonna save the day if we can't get along in the same bloody language over different lifestyles that don't hurt anyone outside not involved .

ceigered:
CULTURE CLASHNESS!

If I may - it all really depends on what someone's grandparents actually think about the word. Or their parents. And gender differences might play a part.

For example, many guys my age have sworn at their parents before, and half of them are quite intelligent, kind, nice people. I've said the F word to my parents before, sometimes (albeit rarely due to the presence of children in the house) in good humour, sometimes (once again, rarely) when I'm very peeved. Vice-versa too (I learnt it from somewhere after all, other than friends). If it's deemed unacceptable due to the general mood, depending on how gratuitous it is, etc, then we apologise, make up, get over it (technically it's a big debate in our household, since I tell my parents off for telling my siblings off for swearing gratuitously, since I think the reason why they swear is worth more critical attention than the words themselves, where as my parents care more about the swearing at their age - fun times! - I still think my "cut the serpent's head off" strategy is best though)

Now, for my grandparents, they certainly wouldn't like hearing the F-word, but everything under it (shit, crap, bastards, bitch, and I'd add bugger but in Australian speech, EVERYONE (and their dogs/babies according to various Toyota ads) says it), they could tolerate and say on occasions but with a hushing of their voices. One thing I noticed is that if they here their grandchildren swearing they're rather forgiving/accepting etc, which I see as being part of their greatness, able to accept the change in times, the change in vocabularies (although they'll still rant on about how kids these days are too loose with their mouths saying "F F F F F" all the time).

But obviously Sinanthiel in your family things work different. Words have different connotations. But in my family, it's the same things - some things you say/act in your family would be, well, probably not offensive but considered weird by my family (they're rather accepting people unlike the more combative me).

And Novmik's family probably acts entirely different. There might be valid reason for any conflict, real or imagined in his family (judging by how I read your earlier comment novmik). He might swear for a point. He might not. His problems/non-problems/life in general.

So yeah. We all have our own situations, our own families, our own ...

There is no conflict. I shouldnt have mentioned anything personal. Thats a rule I try to keep not to mention personal crap on a forum like family. Whenever I make that mistake I regret it. It seemed somehow relevant. In any case I never mentioned my parents at all. I just mentioned religious grandparents. My parents cursed, drank like fish, had sex that I could hear through the wall, physically assaulted each other, and smoked dope.