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Pronunciation of R

od Leke, 29. júla 2011

Príspevky: 7

Jazyk: English

Leke (Zobraziť profil) 29. júla 2011 7:21:59

There is a online reconstruction of Dr. Esperanto's International Language by Ludwik Lejzer Zamenhof...

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Dr._Esperanto%27s_...

In the pronunciation part, it says,
R r
r as in “rare”

...but I learned (from somewhere) it should be trilled.

Which is it, trilled or like in English?

ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 29. júla 2011 9:39:43

As super-griek said. Basically anywhere between a very crisp English R and a rolled R should be fine (a tap R is probably good middle ground).

Basically, don't make it too loose like the English R, but not too emphatic either (leave those long trills to double RRs like interreto) okulumo.gif

etala (Zobraziť profil) 29. júla 2011 20:17:43

Yep, like ceigered and super-griek said.
First choice: Trilled R
Second choice:Tapped R
Third choice:American R

I just have a question for ceigered, what's a "very crisp English R"? As an American, I haven't heard people use "crisp" to describe R's. If it's not too much trouble, could you post a sound sample?

ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 30. júla 2011 9:47:40

Haha, I can't do one myself I don't think, but basically an English R where it's completely audible, and undoubtedly an "R" sound. (for a food comparison, a crisp R is equivalent to a french fry that really is crispy and not just a thin piece of potato with fried batter okulumo.gif - it just stands out).

E.g. here in Australia I know we tend to sometimes make a "vr" sound instead, like "Vrabbit". We also miss out final R's, and Americans rarely really stress that final R but sort of make it blend with the vowel before it.

For English speakers that's not too bigger problem but for say French or Italian Esperantists they might feel as if you've left half a word out (and we English speakers might feel the same about the French R). So basically unless for whatever reason your English Rs tend to be so recognisable that even non-English speakers can still understand your accent well, it's probably best to avoid it.

(I'm not really speaking to any one "you" here, just in general.)

(And I can't think of any good examples. It's sort of an afterthought after listening to someone who has really clear pronunciation).

Squir (Zobraziť profil) 31. júla 2011 7:18:00

I think the "flap" R like the "tt" in "bottle" and "gritty" is very vague-sounding, and could be mistaken for a "d", "t" or "l". I would do my American (Retroflex approximant) R if I knew I could get away with it, but I feel like I'd have to humorously exaggerate it to make it distinguishable.

When it comes to trilling R's, are you supposed to do it tongue-on-teeth (Latin style) or back-of-throat (German style)? I'm very clumsy doing it tongue-on-teeth and sometimes mess it up completely, and I feel like I'm trying too hard with back-of-throat unless it's "interreto" or something.

I end up doing it French-style-ish (American R's throat-form fading into German R). But whatever way I do it, it feels a little unnatural and I'm worried about sometimes sounding like ĥ (German "ach").

Am I doing it right?

erinja (Zobraziť profil) 31. júla 2011 7:41:10

Latin-style R. Definitely not German-style, though in their respective national accents, you do hear German and French people speaking with their respective R's.

I think Italian is a good example of the right R. But really you can just listen to some audio texts in Esperanto, for example here to get a sense for how it should sound.

ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 31. júla 2011 8:42:24

Squir:I think the "flap" R like the "tt" in "bottle" and "gritty" is very vague-sounding, and could be mistaken for a "d", "t" or "l". I would do my American (Retroflex approximant) R if I knew I could get away with it, but I feel like I'd have to humorously exaggerate it to make it distinguishable.
Yeah I wouldn't do that one. Actually, I never got why that was used as the example for a "Spanish" R so much, since it's such a vague sound in English (the double tt, not the Spanish R).

The tt in English is more usually a cross between a post-alveolar d and a Japanese R laŭ mi...

Nahor