That is interesting, Erinja, and counter-intuitive. I don't think there'd be many of those fluent speakers, though. The ones I've seen at comic conventions and who dress up like Klingons probably don't really know that much aside from a few phrases, as you said. Though I can't believe they'd leave Star Trek behind completely, I'd say they'd remain fans, surely. Why not? Why be a fluent klingon speaker and say "yeah, but I don't really care about the show anymore." It is actually a pretty fun show, and often quite smart. And there'd be a few who are just interested in Klingonese for its own merits. Still, the thing itself is more or less a bit of elaborate set-decoration for a TV show, so I wouldn't compare it to Esperanto.

Here's something from San Diego, just outside the convention centre. The signs at this tram stop are 'bilingual', for the enjoyment of the many geeks who arrive for Comic-Con.

3rdblade:That is interesting, Erinja, and counter-intuitive. I don't think there'd be many of those fluent speakers, though. The ones I've seen at comic conventions and who dress up like Klingons probably don't really know that much aside from a few phrases, as you said. Though I can't believe they'd leave Star Trek behind completely, I'd say they'd remain fans, surely. Why not? Why be a fluent klingon speaker and say "yeah, but I don't really care about the show anymore." It is actually a pretty fun show, and often quite smart. And there'd be a few who are just interested in Klingonese for its own merits. Still, the thing itself is more or less a bit of elaborate set-decoration for a TV show, so I wouldn't compare it to Esperanto.

Speaking as a definite Trek fan I'd say you're selling it short by your description. Many episodes in each of the 5 Treks are very intelligent and thought-provoking, and very well acted too.

3rdblade:Here's something from San Diego, just outside the convention centre. The signs at this tram stop are 'bilingual', for the enjoyment of the many geeks who arrive for Comic-Con.

Here in Canada we're familiar with bilingual labelling, almost everying has to be labelled in both English and French. Those would appear to be two signs both in Klingon but written in two scripts, likely a necessity since from the smidgen I've seen it looks extremely hard to learn even using the western alphabet!

Epikuro57:Speaking as a definite Trek fan I'd say you're selling it short by your description. Many episodes in each of the 5 Treks are very intelligent and thought-provoking, and very well acted too.

Oh I'm a fan of the show. I usually don't go round admitting it, though. Hence my subdued praise for it! I even learned a couple of words of klingon for my second graphic novel; take a look.

3rdblade:So basically, it's about ego and self-identity of the learner. I would not compare someone's motivation to learn Esperanto to someone's motivation to study Klingon at all. Being able to speak Klingon at a sci-fi convention is like owning a pair of Bill Shatner's sneakers, or being able to recite all of the Rules of Acquisition by heart, or owning a signed portrait of DeForest Kelley, or something similar. Klingon is merchandise, it adds lustre and deeper meaning to the product it's helping to sell. For these reasons it's not like Esperanto and shouldn't be put on the same platform as it.

Well, if we're going on stereotypes, then aren't Esperanto speakers merely learning an "easy to learn international language", because they don't feel they identify with those who have more imperial ambitions for English, and that they can't grasp other langauges easily?

Ego and self-identity obviously then exists in Esperanto too.

Being able to speak Esperanto is like being an internationalist, working towards utopia (and I could go on with a few other equivalents but you can probably guess what I'm doing here!).

Esperanto is also merchandise depending on how you look at it. It's merchandise for those who dream of a more utopian world, where we can communicate together with people across the globe. And it doesn't need to be because people have good reasons for that does it? Nup, people just want to talk to other people across the globe for status. To prove that they're better than those more isolated red necks they live with.

Now, that seems a little one-dimensional for an evaluation of the EO community doesn't it? (alas I still suspect there is truth in that, but obviously it cannot be applied to the community as a whole).

Esperanto is a language, Klingon is a language. Sure, they're different and so I agree that Klingon is irrelavent when bringing up Esperanto when we're talking about International society, IALs, and Esperanto is irrelevant when bringing up Klingon, startrek, etc. But it's not like they're that far away from each other when we bring up the subject of constructed languages. They both serve a purpose, have a target audience, satisfy our human desires, and they were both made in such a manner we can't help but call them "man-made".

3rdblade:the main reason people learn Klingon is to show the depth of their loyalty to Star Trek..they seek a tribe of like-minded souls..

ceigered:..it's not like they're that far away from each other..

+1

What 3tdblade said about Klingon did make me think of Esperanto - seeking like-minded souls (on Earth).

Also loyalty to the movement is associated with enthusiasm for the language - it seems to me that people tend to gain or lose both together.

3rdblade:That is interesting, Erinja, and counter-intuitive. I don't think there'd be many of those fluent speakers, though.

There aren't that many fluent speakers, and they wouldn't be the ones dressed up.

This is the article I read, it's someone's academic thesis for a sociology degree. It's long but worth reading if you have the time.

erinja:
There aren't that many fluent speakers, and they wouldn't be the ones dressed up.

I dunno. This bunch actually created and performed an Opera entirely in Klingon.

[url=Link]http://www.u-theopera.org/[/url]

Singing in an opera that someone else has translated is entirely different from being a fluent speaker of a language.

Opera singers regularly sing in languages they don't understand.

erinja:Opera singers regularly sing in languages they don't understand.

And I don't even understand opera if it is in my own language. So for me it may be Klingon as well.

I think it's safe to say Klingon is like Cornish - there's enough of a language community, but there's a lot more "would be speakers" in its community than there are actual speakers.

@ Erinja:

That article's conclusion was all I really read, but I didn't realise Klingon was so young. It should have clicked, but it didn't. Another thing though I found myself disagreeing with though was their comment that the current authority structures in the Klingon community will lose status as sort as "native Klingon speakers" are born. That doesn't sound right to me, from an Esperanto standpoint, or even from a French standpoint. Well, I mean, you can't tell the native how to speak their language, but your authority doesn't drop because the native speaker isn't an authority themselves.

On the flipside though, I think as we get more and more native speakers, rather than authority shifting, there will just be another place to look to for authority. But such a process would take time (nonetheless, it'd be interesting to see a visible difference between a community of natives and say the Akademio, if they were to disagree on a point).