Chainy:

qwertz:And they have a very strong respect belief for being accepted at same "hierarchy level" in the manner of collegiality.

Why do you keep pushing this idea of 'collegiality' on us? Is that your way of 'self-positioning'?

For me Collegiality is the most proper term to describe the atmosphere/ambiance inside four junulara Espo events I took part.

Miland:

qwertz:I'm in doubt that young esperantists nowadays would accept that patriach role of Esperanto veterans .. young folks have very detailed ideas/beliefs how the Esperantujo has to look like ..

I don't think that anyone needs to be a 'patriarch' or even old - just willing to uphold the traditions.

Well, I received your posting that way, that solely Esperanto veterans* teach younger folks. In my opinion also young Espo folks can teach Esperanto veterans, too. Both should be capable to accept enhancement of Esperanto culture heritage/community.

Btw., does there also excist an tradition to evolve the tradition? Or does that would make the concept "tradition" obsolete?

*I don't wanna use that word to offense somebody. Is veteran an neutral word to show some respect to matured folks and their life-experiences? Does there excist another more neutral English word?

Miland:
That is why I spoke of it being a responsibility for the whole community. The "very detailed ideas" may well be good, but they should be consistent with holding on to those things that are most deeply rooted. For example, the Fundamento, la verda stelo and La Espero all go back to the beginning of the movement. New logos, ideas and ways of expressing the idea of the movement (like a backpackers' association) should be quite compatible with holding onto these things.

In my opinion I see the Fundamento an very deep root of Esperanto. For the Verda stelo and the La Espero I don't see any deep root. Especially La Espero can not competite to todays music (business). Regarding the Verda stelo symbols. Hhm. Seeing symbols like brand names I would say me as Esperantist should be free of choice to use and create my own symbols. As long I put an Esperanto language slogan (especially ŝ, ĵ, ĝ, ĥ, ĉ) around every symbol(OpenOffice file), that seems to be proper to show others that I'm part of the Esperanto community.

Its more about "relaunching the wrapping" of the Esperanto community to make it more attractive. Also, the belief "respect" to other folks very often is discussed across todays youth. I only know an German video regarding that respect issue. English: "Without respect, no respect" means "If you don't respect me/my beliefs, than I will not respect yours". It furthermore means that everybodies beliefs are discussion-able (German:diskutierbar) if that discussion comes in a friendly non-arrogant/non-egocentric manner. Even Hip Hop/Rap culture has that principles behind their battle events. Apropos "respect". Take a ear to hear the beginning of track 08 - Kuglo - HHK2 - Eterne Rima, Platano HHK2.

Miland:

Chainy:

Miland:
Edit: "We" is those Esperantists who are not "snickering at all of the 'old people' singing La Espero" and having a laugh about "the bigger the green star, the worse a person speaks Esperanto."

Is it possible not to snigger at that kind of thing?

Yes.
Actually I'm not against developing new Esperantaj mojosaĵoj. My point is only that our deepest traditions shouldn't be thrown overboard in the process.

Well, yes, inside an community that seems to be out of control. There probably excists opinion-makers. Maybe musicans with their lyrics. But even they can not fully control if there could get things or beliefs lost. Its an experiment because every community is influenced by others. Its an high dynamic interplay/Wechselspiel between hobby-communities.

erinja:It's hard to say, I haven't seen the youth of the past. But I do think that people who "grew up in the movement", if you will, have a different viewpoint from those who came to Esperanto as adults.

I don't see youths as being against green stars, per se. But at large Esperanto events, you will sometimes see people wearing huge gaudy green star jewellery, with shirts that say "ESPERANTO" in big letters, wearing a green star hat and carrying an "Esperanto Internacia Lingvo" bag.

People like that are not likely to be youths. I've seen youths wearing smaller green stars, a small pin, a necklace charm, a pair of earrings. And I've seen youths wearing Esperanto t-shirts as well. But it's usually not a gaudy in-your-face Esperanto outfit like you sometimes see on middle-aged women in particular.

Even with regard to La Espero, I don't see it as being necessarily against the song in general. I think that many young Esperantists look at the community through an outsider's eyes, and it looks like a strange religion or cult, with the flags and hymns, and they don't like that.

Or else they see it as boring and they'd rather skip the long speeches in favor of doing something more fun.

That sounds peculiar. I have never attended one of these events. Seems like how the Irish celebrate Saint Patricks day if they are in say France or some other land, where they go in for heavy exaggeration to reinforce their Irish identity, wearing extra large green hats and other bizarre costumery, a comicon or GOP convention in the USA.

qwertz:

Chainy:

qwertz:And they have a very strong respect belief for being accepted at same "hierarchy level" in the manner of collegiality.

Why do you keep pushing this idea of 'collegiality' on us? Is that your way of 'self-positioning'?

For me Collegiality is the most proper term to describe the atmosphere/ambiance inside four junulara Espo events I took part.

From reading these posts, I am getting an idea that there is some strange conflict between young and old Esperantists. Strangely, it seems unworldly, even though Esperantists should be internationalists, to have such a youth conflict.

It's a strange dynamic in the Esperanto community but I wouldn't characterize it necessarily as a conflict between young and old.

On a local level, I would say that Esperanto is much more "age-integrated" than other communities. You definitely have a lot of interaction between young and old in local Esperanto groups, more than you would find in other communities.

On an international level I think there is some degree of conflict, but I wouldn't say that it's between young and old, so much as ... between tradition and innovation. And these attributes don't necessarily correspond to age.

A friend of mine attended UEA's open house ("Malferma tago") at the Central Office, within the last couple of years. There were talks going on for the whole day, and some people wanted to know how they could connect to the wireless internet. They were informed that the Central Office did not have wireless internet. They were shocked. How could there not be wireless? "No problem", they thought. "We will pool our money, because many people would like to have wireless internet; we will buy a router for the CO, and leave it there, and we will all have wireless."

They asked permission to buy the router (with their OWN money) and install it. Permission was denied. They were told that the CO does not want to have wireless internet. It didn't matter that there were many computer professionals who could set up the wireless network with the necessary security precautions etc. It was "no" for the sake of "no", and it didn't make sense.

I heard some stories about this year's negotiations for the location of the UK after Hanoi. There were a lot of complaints in Copenhagen about the cost. So they decided to do the UK after Hanoi in... Reykjavik, which is one of the few European cities that is probably EVEN MORE expensive than Copenhagen. There will be no low-cost alternatives for transportation to get there, it's an expensive city, it doesn't have a large Esperanto movement. But one of the alternative ideas, in the vein of trying something new, was to have UK aboard a cruise ship. The per-day cost would likely have been less than Copenhagen, because all meals are included in the price. The idea was rejected because "it would be too expensive for the youth", though I hear that the youth representative on the committee was in favour of the idea. It would be an interesting thing to try at least once, to shake things up a little, to see how things work out. But UK has always been held in a big expensive convention center, and the people on the commmittee were not willing to try something new (or rather, some of them were willing, and some weren't, and "not willing" outvoted "willing").

I understand that the CO has wireless now, or so I have heard. But that initial refusal doesn't make sense to me. It fits into a pattern of behaviour that I have witnessed from some people in the Esperanto movement. It doesn't relate to age, it doesn't even relate to how long someone has been involved with Esperanto. It has nothing to do with someone's personal opinion of "La Espero" or green star symbols or anything. It has to do with willingness to try to do things a different way, versus "let's do it the way we've always done it, because that's the way we've always done it".

Strange about the wireless, especially since so many computer lovers and Linux enthusiasts are esperantists. It sounds vaguely soviet the refusal of wireless. Perhaps there is some other message in this that isnt negative though. On a positive side, maybe it simply means that the Central Office or the heads and central organization of Esperanto to date are not important, but rather what individuals do independently of the central Esperanto committees and such. After all in many public parks even there is a wifi connection. in the USA WIFI is on every long distance bus and little corner park! Its hard even to go to a coffee shop or restaurant without the offer.

Maybe they should have a meeting on a moving train instead of a boat: they could rent some train cars and travel across country!

The UEA has been the main Esperanto umbrella association for a long time, and I think that the UEA likes to think of itself as being the focal point of the Esperanto movement. There is some truth in that, and many Esperanto speakers also see UEA as being the focal point of the Esperanto movement.

When people have new ideas and they come to the UEA with these ideas, and they are repeatedly turned away and told that things are fine the way they are, these people start to get the impression that it isn't worth going to the UEA with their ideas. They decide that if they want to put their ideas into action, they have to do it themselves, with no involvement from the UEA. On one hand, the UEA would prefer that most Esperanto activity take place under its auspices, or under the auspices of one of its member organizations. On the other hand, certain types of Esperanto projects are highly unlikely ever to get UEA funding (lernu.net, for example, has never gotten a penny from UEA).

This situation is risky for the UEA. If Esperantists start to get the idea that the UEA does nothing useful, they start to ask themselves "Why bother joining at all, and what is my membership money supporting, anyway?", and numbers of UEA members continue to fall. The UEA risks making itself irrelevant, if Esperantists no longer see a point in joining.

I should note that I speak of the UEA as if it were a person, but of course it is made up of all different people, with all different viewpoints. However, as an organization, it leaves a certain impression, and it tends towards a certain direction.

I am a UEA member myself but I ask myself why. I don't read their magazine, which has little that interests me. If I were an Esperanto speaker considering whether to join, and I went to the UEA website to figure out what good work the UEA would do with my prospective membership money, it would be difficult to find out. Most of the information on the website is vague and out of date. UEA leadership seems resistant to the idea of updating their website, and I am not sure why. I guess they think it's fine the way it is.

erinja:The UEA has been the main Esperanto umbrella association for a long time, and I think that the UEA likes to think of itself as being the focal point of the Esperanto movement.

I generally support the idea of the UEA, if only it could get its act together!

erinja:On the other hand, certain types of Esperanto projects are highly unlikely ever to get UEA funding (lernu.net, for example, has never gotten a penny from UEA).

I find it ridiculous that the UEA has never been willing to help Lernu.net. This is a very important website for newcomers to the language.

erinja:If I were an Esperanto speaker considering whether to join, and I went to the UEA website to figure out what good work the UEA would do with my prospective membership money, it would be difficult to find out. Most of the information on the website is vague and out of date. UEA leadership seems resistant to the idea of updating their website, and I am not sure why. I guess they think it's fine the way it is.

Yes, I've often thought about joining the UEA, but it doesn't really inspire you when you take a look at their dreary website. Then you read about all of their funny arguments via Libera Folio... All about komitato this, komitato that and meanwhile not much actually happening. And there's been a hilarious argument about the editor of the Esperanto revuo - first they fire him, then they bring him back.

Every year the UEA loses members and the whole thing just seems to be in rather a mess at the moment. It's clear that there's not really anyone leading the UEA at the moment - everyone's just drifting along.

I still haven't joined the UEA...

erinja:
On an international level I think there is some degree of conflict, but I wouldn't say that it's between young and old, so much as ... between tradition and innovation. And these attributes don't necessarily correspond to age.

I agree. I also would like add that innovation also needs some bravery. Bravery to "to shake things up a little, to see how things work out" how you wrote by yourself.

erinja:
A friend of mine attended UEA's open house ("Malferma tago") at the Central Office, within the last couple of years. There were talks going on for the whole day, and some people wanted to know how they could connect to the wireless internet. They were informed that the Central Office did not have wireless internet. They were shocked. How could there not be wireless? "No problem", they thought. "We will pool our money, because many people would like to have wireless internet; we will buy a router for the CO, and leave it there, and we will all have wireless."

An WiFi access point was an central meeting point at every of four Youth-Espo events I took part.

erinja:
I heard some stories about this year's negotiations for the location of the UK after Hanoi. There were a lot of complaints in Copenhagen about the cost. So they decided to do the UK after Hanoi in... Reykjavik, which is one of the few European cities that is probably EVEN MORE expensive than Copenhagen. There will be no low-cost alternatives for transportation to get there, it's an expensive city, it doesn't have a large Esperanto movement.

I believe it relates to tradition to change the location of every event. That also relates to IJK. Changing the location seems to be contra-productive to the intention to spread local Esperanto culture at the regarding location.

erinja:
But one of the alternative ideas, in the vein of trying something new, was to have UK aboard a cruise ship. The per-day cost would likely have been less than Copenhagen, because all meals are included in the price.

Thats quite interesting. I would recommend the Danube for that. It crosses many of European countries which allows budget-priced boarding. The Danube can be traveled by ship. Maybe there excist some location near the Danube which have some Esperanto history. I.e. Grein (Austria) has an small non-famous Esperanto square. Would be interesting to find out more about Esperanto history nearby the Danube river. In my opinion an UK/IJK etc. at an Danube river boat could be attractive for youth and matured folks. Also excist an long-distance bicycle/push-bike track which follows the Danube river bed.

Map of Danube river