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It seems to me ..

de sudanglo, 19 august 2011

Contribuții/Mesaje: 90

Limbă: English

geo63 (Arată profil) 21 august 2011, 15:04:46

This site tries to solve the problem with many redundand esperanto words:

Simplaj samsignifaj vortoj

PS. I have just started learning Chinese - it is simple so far... rido.gif sal.gif

Kodegadulo (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 01:05:19

I guess my aversion to "konstelacio" and other such Latinisms is that they pollute Esperanto with the fossilized remains of an entirely different system of word-formation. Latin concrete noun "stella" becomes Latin verb "stellare" becomes Latin participle "stellatus" becomes Latin abstract noun "stellatio" acquires a sense of togetherness with Latin prefix "con" to yield "constellatio". Transliterated wholesale into Esperanto phonemes to yield "konstelacio". But if we absolutely must preserve the semantics of this word in order to appeal to an "international" technical audience, why not recapitulate its ontogeny but use Esperanto's perfectly good system of word formation instead of Latin's?

stelo => steligi => steligajxo => kunsteligajxo

Okay, we can debate whether I've used the right Esperanto affixes to convey the same sense, but the point is, let Esperanto do the work.

darkweasel (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 06:40:45

Kodegadulo:stelo => steligi => steligajxo => kunsteligajxo
Where does the -ig suffix (meaning "to render", "to cause") come from? demando.gif

mihxil (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 06:53:50

Kodegadulo:Okay, we can debate whether I've used the right Esperanto affixes to convey the same sense, but the point is, let Esperanto do the work.
I agree that that might have been nice. But I also think conformation is more important. 'konstelacio' was included in the astronomia terminaro with a specific meaning (an area in the sky). As such it appeared in wikipedia. Also it appears in PIV and Revo (though with a less precise meaning). So it doesn't matter whether we like it or not, this is probably the most correct term to translate the english 'constellation'.

ceigered (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 10:36:51

geo63:PS. I have just started learning Chinese - it is simple so far... rido.gif sal.gif
Except for pronunciation okulumo.gif I guess all languages have to make up for some degree of complexity somehow rido.gif (Esperanto must be just well balanced, from our viewpoint at least).

Anyway, about the SSV, I can't entirely agree with the approach, but I recognise its usefulness. But I still think some words that appear redundant or ambiguous are in fact very useful. So between the tendency of internationalisation to add neologisms to the language, and between bonlingvismo, I think there's a good neutral point.

super-griek: Butikŝteli
What's wrong with butikŝteli? (unless you want elbutikŝteli or something precisely conveying the idea that the stealing is from the shop, and not the shop itself doing the stealing.

Of course I'm assuming this is to describe shoplifting, which if it is, I reckon that's enough to make a "one word" phrase for it, since there's a lot between stealing from a house and stealing from a shop.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 10:38:58

I think now that 'plondri' would be the best form for 'to plunder' as it combines the feeling of swooping of 'plonĝi' and the aggressiveness of 'tondro'.

Actually what would be quite nice would be a compilation of words that have a similar form in a number of European languages and do not yet have an Esperanto equivalent.

This would provide a rich resource which the Esperantist author could plunder to plug the gaps, where imagination fails to find a suitable compound form from the existing root stock.

This resource would allow greater confidence in innovation by the lone author and a launch pad for testing out the acceptability of particular 'neologismoj' among the wider public.

It is noteworthy in this regard that quite a few non-technical words in Esperanto, which are now universally accepted, are in fact relatively recent in the language.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 10:52:43

Ceiger 'butikŝteli' would be fine if :

1. Usage had already limited it to the meaning of shop lifting, in the way that usage has determined that 'lernejo' is not just any place for learning but a school.

2, Esperanto were no more than a hobby language, not used for serious purposes, so that any distinction between looting and shop-lifting was unimportant.

Recent events in some English cities demonstrate a quite different view of the English courts between the two offences, and such a distinction I would anticipate being reflected in other European legal systems.

ceigered (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 11:09:39

sudanglo:Ceiger 'butikŝteli' would be fine if :

1. Usage had already limited it to the meaning of shop lifting, in the way that usage has determined that 'lernejo' is not just any place for learning but a school.

2, Esperanto were no more than a hobby language, not used for serious purposes, so that any distinction between looting and shop-lifting was unimportant.

Recent events in some English cities demonstrate a quite different view of the English courts between the two offences, and such a distinction I would anticipate being reflected in other European legal systems.
So then, what's your word for looting? (The word "loot" itself coming from Hindi for "to steal")

The Esperanto word seems to be "predi" according to the dictionary here, which is the word for "to prey upon". (couldn't find pillage or sack, but since those two have militaristic connotations, even they are not more precise than butikŝteli).

Furthermore, it's not like we have to restrict ourselves here. In normal society, where there's no disasters, and the context is provided so we don't get confused between shoplifting and its more anarchistic variant looting, butikŝteli makes perfect sense, is simple, and does things nicely. No more and no less ambiguous than "ŝteli en/el butiko", no?

Unless there's another word, I don't see anything that dumbs down esperanto in butikŝteli, and in legal parlance, perhaps "anarkiŝteli" or "anarkie butikŝteli" would suffice (which is what looting is essentially, taking advantage of a situation akin to anarchy, even if its temporary or forced by the culprit, and stealing in such an environment).

EDIT: just saw plondri, could be useful for a word akin to pillage or sack, but I must ask if plundering is more or less intense than either of those two - plundering sounds like it involves the act of "plunging (the town) into chaos", while pillaging and sacking seem more temporary, less (chaotic) ramifications.

erinja (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 11:51:43

I think that a word for pillage or sack would be a much more accurate and descriptive term for what the looters did to the stores, than "butikŝteli".

Wells has "disrabi" for pillage and also for sack. That sounds like a good description of what the looters did. Not just robbing from the stores, but doing it in a widespread, disorderly way.

And it's a bonlingvisma word, so everyone should be happy. Esperanto has a small stock of words, but in very many cases, you can come up with something adequately descriptive by combining one of the basic roots with a suitable prefix or another root.

Kodegadulo (Arată profil) 22 august 2011, 11:56:20

darkweasel:
Kodegadulo:stelo => steligi => steligajxo => kunsteligajxo
Where does the -ig suffix (meaning "to render", "to cause") come from? demando.gif
I was grabbing affixes semi-randomly to make a point, I'm not wedded those particular ones. But what I was going for was "to make into a star/to make out of stars" to give the sense of "stellare". But given that the next step was passive participle "stellatus" perhaps it would have been more apt to use "-igx" for the sense "to be made into a star/to be made out of stars". For instance, a "stellation" of a geometric figure makes it into a star-shape.

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