The word "shoplifting" in itself is a bit unclear without knowing the context. Although the word "lift" is sometimes used as slang for "steal," it's not commonly used in that context outside of this word. I work for the court system where I live and my state's statutes dropped the term many years ago. It is now legally termed as "retail fraud." (This offense can involve other elements besides shoplifting-such as switching price tags, assisting someone else, etc.) Language can't always be perfectly precise. Convenient terms come to be invented, their meaning understood, and eventually become standard. "Butikŝteli" seems to be as good an option as any for describing "la ŝtelado de aĵojn de butikoj."

"Butikŝteli" seems to be as good an option as any for describing "la ŝtelado de aĵojn de butikoj."

But that just brings back full circle to our starting point, Mulstelvulpo.

I think we can agree that the first analysis of 'butikŝteli' is, as you have defined it, in the same way that 'domŝteli' is thieving from houses.

But this does nothing to distinguish the activities of the rioters from the petty pilfering of the shoplifter.

And 'butikrabi' does nothing to distinguish the corner store holdup merchant from the looter.

'Infanŝteli' in a similar fashion groups together the kidnapping of a child (for ransom, or to apply pressure to the parent) with the abduction from an unguarded pram by a deranged childless woman.

Happily, though, here we have resort to 'kidnapi', registered in NPIV.

Erinja, NPIV defines 'disrabi' as 'dividi inter si rabaĵon' - which leaves me no wiser.

ceigered:

geo63:PS. I have just started learning Chinese - it is simple so far...

Except for pronunciation I guess all languages have to make up for some degree of complexity somehow (Esperanto must be just well balanced, from our viewpoint at least).

As a matter of fact the Chinese pronunciation is much easier for a Pole than the English one - most sounds of Chinese we have in our language. Of course there are tones and writing to master, but if one works hard enough...

sudanglo: think we can agree that the first analysis of 'butikŝteli' is, as you have defined it, in the same way that 'domŝteli' is thieving from houses.

But this does nothing to distinguish the activities of the rioters from the petty pilfering of the shoplifter.

I still fail to see the problem. The whole thing simply is dependent on how 'butikŝteli' is used, and/or how it ended up in dictionaries. I'd say it is pretty clear, but that may be because in dutch a quite similar compound is in use. It may be that Wells and Benson made up the whole word, since it seems to be missing from PIV. Or perhaps they had another source, and is the word not without proof at all. What can we say? We need the facts here, not some conjectures.

But even if the word is only present in those english dictionaries, that's better than nothing, and I would propose to simply accept and follow that.

sudanglo:Erinja, NPIV defines 'disrabi' as 'dividi inter si rabaĵon' - which leaves me no wiser.

That definition doesn't make any sense to me. That would be "disdividi" to me; when you "dissemi", it means to strew seeds on fields, it doesn't mean to divide up seeds among different people.

But it almost doesn't matter what NPIV's definition says, because Esperanto usage, going back to Zamenhof, supports use of "disrabi" in the sense of pillaging or looting.

If you search verb forms of disrabi in tekstaro.com, the usages fit with the idea of pillaging or looting. Those uses go back to Zamenhof, so if Zamenhof can say in his translation of the Bible Tiam la popolo eliris, kaj disrabis la tendaron de la Sirianoj., then I think it would be totally reasonable to say Tiam la popolo eliris, rompis fenestrojn, kaj disrabis la butikojn de Totenhamo.

geo63:As a matter of fact the Chinese pronunciation is much easier for a Pole than the English one - most sounds of Chinese we have in our language. Of course there are tones and writing to master, but if one works hard enough...

Ah yeah I forgot about that! Still, for an English speaker like myself, I guess Polish is probably easier since we can afford to have an unauthentic accent more in Polish than Chinese . You lucky Polish person

Sudanglo:But this does nothing to distinguish the activities of the rioters from the petty pilfering of the shoplifter.

It shouldn't have to. I mean, doesn't a looter technically shoplift when he steals from a store?

We're assuming the listener/reader isn't going to see a stock standard word without context and then assume it must be something remarkebly precise or amazing. This example's a slight exaggeration, but we assume the reader/listener is not silly and won't read "kato" and assume we're talking about a "purpure punkta leono", technically a "kato".

An equivalent example in English legal speech would be "assault", which in itself is a crime (normally punching someone in the face or something like that), but then you've got the subcrimes of sexual, aggravated, verbal, racial and whateverelse assault (each with an arbitrary sentence system designed to do very little towards actual rehabilitation). A good analogue to stealing vs. shoplifting vs. looting laŭ mi.

Although looting can mean "domŝteli" as well, if some recent riots help me remember.

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Speaking of words made with Esperanto's derivational system, how about "laŭmii" for "To say "laŭ mi", perhaps excessively in order to assert your opinion as if anyone cares"?

Ceige laŭmias multe.

ceigered:

geo63:As a matter of fact the Chinese pronunciation is much easier for a Pole than the English one - most sounds of Chinese we have in our language. Of course there are tones and writing to master, but if one works hard enough...

Ah yeah I forgot about that! Still, for an English speaker like myself, I guess Polish is probably easier since we can afford to have an unauthentic accent more in Polish than Chinese ::rido.

Well... I am not quite sure about that. If you put wrong stress on Polish words you might well say something stupid:

"Ostrożnie mijaj Kalisz" - carefully go past Kalisz (such town in Poland)

"Ostrożnie mi jajka liż" - gently lick my balls

The only difference is in stress...

geo63:"Ostrożnie mijaj Kalisz" - carefully go past Kalisz (such town in Poland)

"Ostrożnie mi jajka liż" - gently lick my balls

The only difference is in stress...

Phew... thank god I can (sorta) handle stress....

I'm guessing (probably badly) that the stress difference is mi JAJka LIŻ vs. MIjaj KAlisz? (totally just putting Esperanto stress into Polish there)

One day I'll learn this language, with a heavy Anglo-Croato-Esperanto-accent with complete disregard for subtle palatalisation and inappopriate placing of masculine/neuter with feminine

ceigered:Phew... thank god I can (sorta) handle stress....

I'm guessing (probably badly) that the stress difference is mi JAJka LIŻ vs. MIjaj KAlisz? (totally just putting Esperanto stress into Polish there)

You're good at it, man! That's right - Polish stress is exactly the same as in Esperanto - that's the reason for the latter, isn't it? But it's nothing compared to Chinese with four different tones....