پستها: 133
زبان: English
sudanglo (نمایش مشخصات) 10 سپتامبر 2011، 9:30:03
The significant point remains, that such a phenomenon seems to be almost entirely absent from Esperanto, though perhaps someone could dig up a few examples of sentences that on the surface are good Esperanto, but are not things an Esperantist would say.
It is this feature of Esperanto, which almost as much as the simplicity of the grammar, that makes it easy to acquire and well suited to its role.
Esperanto largely avoids idiomatic usage and usage-sanctioned formulae for specific situations.
I am not entirely sure how it is we form judgements that this or that sentence is better style in Esperanto, or more acceptable(other than on the basis of clarity, of course).
There is definitely a lingvosento but this has very little to do with usage criteria derived from a group of privileged speakers.
That, of course, is exactly the situation with the natural languages, where the lingvosento is almost entirely conditioned by reference to usage.
sudanglo (نمایش مشخصات) 10 سپتامبر 2011، 10:07:38
But even here there is some elasticity, so that a particular root may be more readily extended to some novel usage.
But, of course, so many words in Esperanto are compounds and here any particular compound word (including the simple compound of root + finaĵo) acquires meaning from some transparency of application - intelligibilty, based on our knowledge of the world and what action or thing or quality the root fairly obviously appears to label.
If I use a word like poŝ-ŝtelisto for pickpocket it is understood not so much because that is the word that Esperantists use, so much as that we know of the 'profession' - know that there are people who steal furtively from the pockets of perambulating inattentive tourists.
On the other hand a poster advising vistors to London to be on the alert for 'pocket thieves' would produce some bemusement.
Although in English we say panty-thief for a certain sort of pervert who purloins ladies lingerie from washing lines we don't use the expression pocket-thief. To learn English you have to learn the expressions actually used - the idiomatic usage.
And if you say something different in America, Erinja, that doesn't undermine my point.
sudanglo (نمایش مشخصات) 10 سپتامبر 2011، 10:23:23
We kill two birds with one stone, emphasizing that Esperanto is different from English in its function and taking a swipe at those who parrot that, of course, Esperanto has no culture.
I read on the Net somewhere the comment of some linguist that to describe English as a Lingua Franca is misnomer. A true Lingua Franca is one that puts the users on an equalfooting as a bridge language and is not the language of one group usurped for international usage.
Here's the quote:
Scholars such as Professor François Grin disagree with the use of the term “lingua franca” to describe the hegemonic position of English or any other national language, as the term "lingua franca” has historically been applied to a hybrid language which respects the equal rights of speakers of different language.
Grin points out that one needs at least 12,000 hours of exposure to and use of English to bring a learner to the level of a native speaker, i.e. 4 hours per week, 40 weeks per year, for 75 years.
This underlies the political inequality made inevitable by any use of English, or any other national language, as a common EU language.
ceigered (نمایش مشخصات) 10 سپتامبر 2011، 11:11:59
I know the original Lingua Franca (Sabir) sure as hell wasn't equal for everybody - look at colonisation of non-European territories for example, and how especially in pidgin and creole languages, many words were adopted from Lingua Franca, but ultimately the structure of Lingua Franca changed little and was more or less imposed by Europeans.
And I doubt the semitic-speaking peoples in the mediterranean had much influence over Lingua Franca, given how romantic it was vs. semitic (although it was still semitically influenced, as you can see in the vocab).
Fact was, the traders with the money in the mediterranean spoke some dialect of vulgar Latin, and if you wanted to trade with them, you had to speak with them
(Heck, one of its names, "sabir", alone indicates the expectation that you have to ask if someone knows it )===
That said, during this time period (crusades, jihads and miscellaneous holy wars aside), there is evidence of much cultural exchange, but I think it's hard to emulate that in the modern world on a large scale, without a lengthy "divide and conquer" approach. On the other had, things like Sabir were in some ways leftovers of the Roman conquests in the region, coming in contact with the arabic conquests (fun!).
targanook (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 19:48:34
ceigered:I think English technically is a lingua franca.In Polish the word "franca" has a very bad meaning - a women selling her body to men. So let English be that lingua franca
Solulo (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 20:01:10
targanook:Well, I have to confirm it. The esperanto word "franca" pronounced as "frantsa" has very bad connotations in Polish. It means either a whore or a syphilis. I guess Zamenhof wasn't aware of this.ceigered:I think English technically is a lingua franca.In Polish the word "franca" has a very bad meaning - a women selling her body to men. So let English be that lingua franca
darkweasel (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 20:11:41
Solulo: I guess Zamenhof wasn't aware of this.I guess he was, as he knew Polish very well. However, negative connotations in a certain language weren’t a motive for him to reject a certain word - see farti or penis.
Solulo (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 20:30:30
darkweasel:I can bet he had no idea about the meaning of "fart", otherwise he could have substituted it for a number different counterparts. Anyway, as time went by, The Academy should have done sth about it, with "penis and franca" included.Solulo: I guess Zamenhof wasn't aware of this.I guess he was, as he knew Polish very well. However, negative connotations in a certain language weren’t a motive for him to reject a certain word - see farti or penis.
geo63 (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 20:42:27
darkweasel:I agree - there is a company selling light bulbs "OSRAM". In Polish this word means "I will shit it over". Nevertheless "OSRAM" is present in every Polish city (for the citizens to laugh of course)Solulo: I guess Zamenhof wasn't aware of this.I guess he was, as he knew Polish very well. However, negative connotations in a certain language weren’t a motive for him to reject a certain word - see farti or penis.
geo63 (نمایش مشخصات) 12 سپتامبر 2011، 20:47:33
Solulo:Let's change:darkweasel:I can bet he had no idea about the meaning of "fart", otherwise he could have substituted it for a number different counterparts. Anyway, as time went by, The Academy should have done sth about it, with "penis and franca" included.Solulo: I guess Zamenhof wasn't aware of this.I guess he was, as he knew Polish very well. However, negative connotations in a certain language weren’t a motive for him to reject a certain word - see farti or penis.
peni --- verzuki - mi verzukis
franca ---- franĉeza
And the problem is gone for Polish.