Ferdinand Cesarano:The point is that one can easily create conflict where there is none, simply by applying inappropriate standards. Esperanto is, in the end, a thing in and of itself; while Interlingua is a direct mirror of the Romance language family.

I like the way you think Ferdinand (despite disagreeing with you on the Civitano issue, but I guess it's only human to disagree with people on some issues).

Erinja:The way that Ido got started was a shame but that isn't the fault of today's Ido speakers, and it isn't the fault of the language itself. I don't particularly like the sound and structure of Ido, but that's a matter of taste, of course.

I'd have to agree, although I technically find Ido more flowing to my ears. If I think too much about it though, Ido can be a bit of a weird experience for me. But apart from personal tastes, I don't think it does us any good to point fingers or mock them, when they are sort of like
family in a way. (Prodigal son or whatever it's called, although looking at the dictionary, "prodigal" doesn't work outside of that metaphorical sense)

That seems to me to be the case, Erinja, that most Esperantists simply ignore conlangs.

However should a supporter of any conlang make any claim that their language presents a practical solution to the language problem, then it is quite natural for an Esperantist to sit upon him from a great height.

As Esperantists we know how much work has to be done to convert an idea for a language into a viable stable solution.

Additionally, should one wish to argue about design, the simple combinatorial structure of Esperanto, which embraces both basic grammar and lexis, is quite likely the simplest design you could envisage.

In the case of Interlingua, which unfortunately imports undesirable features of natural languages, an Esperantist is bound to point out that Zamenhof quite rightly rejected this as an unprofitable direction long before Gode, or any others of a similar bent, conceived of their projects.

Even if it could be demonstrated experimentally that, for the average European, the time needed to learn to read (silently) a text in Interlingua with X% comprehension was superior in comparison to that required for Esperanto, this would not qualify it as a practical solution.

The requirement to speak and write the language correctly, as well, is paramount.

Anybody who has learnt a foreign national language knows how wide this gulf can be between being able to read a language and being able to speak and write it.

sudanglo:That seems to me to be the case, Erinja, that most Esperantists simply ignore conlangs.

Maybe that is true once people have settled for Esperanto, but in making this choice I'm sure that many people first check out all the other conlangs. I certainly did, as I wanted to feel sure that I was making the right decision.

sudanglo:However should a supporter of any conlang make any claim that their language presents a practical solution to the language problem, then it is quite natural for an Esperantist to sit upon him from a great height.

We can sit on any height that we want. But I don't see a point in engaging with speakers of other languages in debates over who has the best conlang. I personally believe that Esperanto is the best choice. But everyone has their own taste, and if Esperanto isn't to someone's taste, that's fine by me, and I have no interest in trying to convince anyone.

I think that for a person who is interested, they can simply browse around several websites, and Esperanto's strong points will be fairly obvious. I don't think it's necessary to trash other languages in order to build up Esperanto (I'm not saying that you're doing this, it's just a general statement).

darkweasel:

qwertz:
*darned: What means German:"Es ist nicht von der Hand zu weisen" in English?

I might say it cannot be denied (that) ....

Thanks for that translation help.

razlem:
Not just the vocabulary, but the grammar and semantics as well (and for me specifically, the sound and look of Esperanto wasn't appealing).

And I know what yall mean when you say the intl ones look like junk. Many of them don't consider phonaesthetics to be important (in regards to consonant clusters and vowel harmony). I addressed this in my own project, trying to emulate natural euphonic languages like Maori/Hawaiian.

Very nice word: "phonaesthetics". I remember that during last Espo event I had some talk regarding the word "yogurt". German: Jogurt. In French its Yaourt (Ya~o~urt), which sounds very nice to me. Even if I have some problems to pronounce it. These are three vocals in line, which is not common in German. But how an French told me: "Hey, whats about you German folks. You uses a lot of consonants in line. Thats weired, too." (funny friendly disputation). Thats what I like with Interlingua. It seems to be more vocal-focused. Contrary Esperanto itselves, which seems to be more consonant-focused(?), which furthermore make it difficult to speak to Asian natives. (I.e. dan~kon) Maybe historical language evolution also "enforces" some kind of phonaesthetic filtering, which seems to be matter of personal preferences. But sometimes some folks have similar personal preferences and some folks blame some language accents. I.e. in Germany, Sächsisch/Saxon accent often blamed to sound not that nice by non-Saxonions. So, maybe, Sächsisch will remain spoken only inside that area and will not spread means Saxon accent doesn't meet phonaesthetics of other German speaking natives. Or like it could ongoing, that Czech natives will spread Saxonian. Background: Especially at the handcraft field Saxonia (and Bavaria, too) have lots of problems to find young candidates to assign open apprenticeship training positions. Because of that, they started some initiatives to attract Czech and other East-European youngster to assign to apprenticeship training positions in Germany. So, are not surprised to find some special Czech dialect with Saxonian accent in the future.

erinja:

ceigered:Oh, so it's done by Eterne Rima? I think I have heard his EO stuff before, but I don't think I like his stuff in general that much.

I think he goes by at least three different names (if not more) depending on what kind of music he is doing. At any rate his youtube channel appears to have at least three different artist names, and they all sound like him, to me.

His name is Igor. He's an native Polish and currently lives in Japan. There excists an interview with him at Varsovia vento, where he gives some more details how he joined Espo community and other details. Yes, like erinja already mentioned above, he has several music projects. Eterne rima (Espo Hiphopo) seems to be the most known ones. Maestri dil sono is the Ido language project one. The other music style projects by him are Abatejo, Zam & Zil, Kronlarvo and Lunatiko (=the oldest one).

Chainy:

sudanglo:That seems to me to be the case, Erinja, that most Esperantists simply ignore conlangs.

Maybe that is true once people have settled for Esperanto, but in making this choice I'm sure that many people first check out all the other conlangs. I certainly did, as I wanted to feel sure that I was making the right decision.

I feel same. I believe, that it needs some kind of balance of closeness and distance to have an healty relationship to everything (and somebody, too) somebody felt in love. The German idiomatic phrase "Es kann nicht schaden einen Blick über den Tellerrand zu werfen."(It can not harm, to look over rim of plate/fences top") describes something similar like that personal "closeness and distance" harmonization strategy.

erinja:

sudanglo:However should a supporter of any conlang make any claim that their language presents a practical solution to the language problem, then it is quite natural for an Esperantist to sit upon him from a great height.

We can sit on any height that we want.

That can strong conflict to some basic beliefs of some cultures. No, it doesn't concern crab mentality but some cultures ban superior and elitist beliefs. (I'm not saying that you're doing this, it's just a general statement).

You can make fire by rubbing two sticks together or by bashing a flint. But who would recommend that if you had a box of matches.

Isn't preferring one of the conlangs over Esperanto a bit like that.

sudanglo:You can make fire by rubbing two sticks together or by bashing a flint. But who would recommend that if you had a box of matches.

Some folks prefer making holidays inside a tent and some prefer making comfy holidays inside a caravan. But why that camping folks prefer holidays inside a tent even if the have the money to use a caravan? Because of that outdoor freaks like the closeness contact to nature which can not experiences during comfy "sheltering" inside a caravan. Making holidays inside a tent can be an very intensive experience which of course comes along with some kind of ache which caravinists will miss.

sudanglo:You can make fire by rubbing two sticks together or by bashing a flint. But who would recommend that if you had a box of matches.

Isn't preferring one of the conlangs over Esperanto a bit like that.

Depends if you consider brands of matches that you haven't used before to be "rubbing sticks together".

Like how a small minority of Android phone users consider iPhones to be "not-phones" because it's not the brand they prefer.

(Some people use cigarette lighters too. And when it comes to lighting up the area, some people use torches (the poŝlampo kind ), and when it comes to keeping warm, some use portable heaters. Each to his own.)

Qwertz:Yes, like erinja already mentioned above, he has several music projects. Eterne rima (Espo Hiphopo) seems to be the most known ones. Maestri dil sono is the Ido language project one. The other music style projects by him are Abatejo, Zam & Zil, Kronlarvo and Lunatiko (=the oldest one).

I admire his courage to put so much effort into such untraditional music scenes! Takes cajones to do that

Sudanglo:However should a supporter of any conlang make any claim that their language presents a practical solution to the language problem, then it is quite natural for an Esperantist to sit upon him from a great height.

Romans found it natural to sit upon other civilisations at great heights too. Then the barbarians picked the western part of the empire away, built kingdoms, and eventually created the "Holy Roman Empire". The rulers of that also found it natural to sit upon other civilisations at great heights (not a successful venture mind you, since all the money ended up being made in the New World).

I'd continue with this analogy, but being a self-fulfilling prophecy I'll just let you draw the conclusion here, since if I continue eventually I'll get to the 3rd Reich and then someone'll cry GODWIN'S LAW (in that manner).

Moral is, if a man stands on a tower above all others, he might want to check to see if his foundations are stable. But if he refuses to climb all the way down again, how can he check?

(and at the same time, if he climbs down the tower, then he'll be worried because he can't see who's up higher than him - but should he be worried? What is to be gained winning in the game of "who's got the tallest tower", if all the guys up higher than you aren't even aware they're playing or that they're even on a tower?)

ceigered:

Qwertz:
Yes, like erinja already mentioned above, he has several music projects. Eterne rima (Espo Hiphopo) seems to be the most known ones. Maestri dil sono is the Ido language project one. The other music style projects by him are Abatejo, Zam & Zil, Kronlarvo and Lunatiko (=the oldest one).

I admire his courage to put so much effort into such untraditional music scenes! Takes cajones to do that

I assume that these efforts came out of anger due to the fact that most Esperantists instead of evaluating Esperanto heritage doing either solely passive consume Esperanto culture or make other Esperantists ridicolous doing old-fashion Esperanto propaganda. Thats in my opinion also the mood trigger, Unu lingvo song was created by Igor. Btw., thats also one of my main motivation of expansion of the eobo-karaokeoarkivo: Being in anger (German: Wut) that an good idea doesn't evaluating. And sometimes evaluation comes before spreading in the kind of "solely have one shot per X time period", btw.

ceigered:
Moral is, if a man stands on a tower above all others, he might want to check to see if his foundations are stable. But if he refuses to climb all the way down again, how can he check?

S/he will not climb down, because their parents made them to Gods who even doesn't show any respect to their orign = their parents. I see it a kind of unlimited/ overused parent love to their children (German: Schutzbefohlenen). Thats the problem. Thats a very big problem, because that folks everytime try to put their own beliefs above every others beliefs. They are not capable to live respectfull inside a community. An society of such egocentric folks need very restrictive laws to keep that society civilisated running. Of course, there excist different levels of that characteristics. If the Esperanto community can get that solved of their members, they would really be capable to solve some problems of the world.