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Esperanto, ge- and Indeterminate Sex

de eojeff, 21 noiembrie 2011

Contribuții/Mesaje: 27

Limbă: English

eojeff (Arată profil) 21 noiembrie 2011, 17:44:37

I realize that the prefix ge- is used for "both sexes taken together." Can it be used in cases were either sex may be in view?

For example, if your wife is pregnant and the sex of the child is as yet indeterminate, is it correct to refer to the child in utero as gefeto? Or would that incorrectly imply hermaphroditism instead of indeterminate sex?

If this is not the correct way to indicate indeterminate sex in Esperanto, what is?

darkweasel (Arată profil) 21 noiembrie 2011, 18:08:01

You can very well refer to the child in utero as just feto.

In general, views differ on this. Some argue that ge- is supposed to really be just "both sexes", but others - including me - are perfectly happy saying gepatro for "parent".

erinja (Arată profil) 21 noiembrie 2011, 18:24:12

Most Esperanto words aren't masculine or feminine, they're just neutral. Ge- is only strictly necessary when you're trying to get a gender-neutral word out of one of the very few Esperanto roots that is default-masculine. Otherwise, we can use it to emphasize that a neutral word is including both males and females. "Instruistoj" (teachers) may be a group of only men or only women, or mixed. "Geinstruistoj" is specifically a mixed group. "Instruistinoj" is specifically a women-only group. "Virinstruistoj" is specifically a men-only group.

Almost all of the words that aren't gender neutral refer to family relationships (patro, onklo, nevo, filo, etc) or to some kind of hereditary title (reĝo, duko, etc). All other words can be assumed to be neutral, just as words like "fetus", "animal", "teacher", etc are neutral in English.

Some Esperantists seem to believe that Esperanto words are default masculine, so they use a lot of ge- and -in- in situations that seem superfluous. Almost inevitably, at some point in the text they end up using a word without ge-, referring to a group that could be expected to be mixed male and female. It just gets too annoying to put ge- on every single word that they intend to be neutral, and at some point they forget to do it.

ceigered (Arată profil) 22 noiembrie 2011, 13:42:53

So ge- works perfectly well in the singular? I have to admit "gepatroj" is the only word that really sticks in my mind, and since it's a plural term I've never thought about how ge- works singularly.

E.g. could I just go and say "Mia geedzo estas tre amuza homo", like you could say in English "My spouse is very funny", and (at least in Australia), people don't automatically go assuming details about your sexuality based on the fact you used a neutral form instead of edzino?

(Since I don't have any geedzo, edzino or without the ino, and I'm not planning on an edziĝo any time soon, it's obviously a bit detached from me).

Depending on the answer for the above, what does this do to things like "koramiko"? Isn't amiko already pretty darn neutral? Wouldn't "gekoramiko" be superfluous?

tommjames (Arată profil) 22 noiembrie 2011, 14:13:43

ceigered:So ge- works perfectly well in the singular?
I wouldn't go quite that far. Here's what PMEG has to say (translated into English):

"Normally a GE-word with a O-ending can only be plural, as there has to be more than one person in order for both sexes to be present. But some have tried on occasion to stretch the meaning of GE to the meaning "either of the sexes", so that it's possible to make words like gepatro = "mother or father", geedzo = "husband or wife". However such usage is not normal and many consider it illogical or incorrect. Nevertheless, those kinds of words are understandable and can be useful. Perhaps they will be accepted in the future."

Personally I'm in the camp that doesn't like to use GE for singular words, but you can make your own mind up.

ceigered (Arată profil) 22 noiembrie 2011, 14:27:52

Cheers Tommjames - I personally would prefer the roots were gender neutral to begin with, but the use of say "knabo" for a child that may be a girl (but for whatever reason that isn't being specified) wouldn't be quite as obviously as I'd like okulumo.gif

erinja (Arată profil) 22 noiembrie 2011, 14:48:37

Knabo is not a problem, because we already have the gender-neutral word "infano". No need to change the meaning of the word to match an existing word.

Similar to English - no need to make the word "boy" gender neutral, because we already have the neutral word "child".

I have mixed feelings about ge- in the singular. The traditionalist in me doesn't like it, and I can see that it isn't strictly necessary, there is always some kind of workaround. But at the same time, it would be a very convenient usage in some instances.

I don't use it myself in the singular. But when I see my students use it in the singular, I don't call it flat wrong. I let them know the situation, and they can choose for themselves how to use it.

Fenris_kcf (Arată profil) 22 noiembrie 2011, 21:13:45

Well, this issue is one of the reasons why I would prefer Iĉismo. In my opinion it is quite compatible with classic Esperanto (except the part about the prefix "ge-"), so that it wouldn't split the Esperantists into two parties, but I don't want to start another discussion about reforming the international language...

As long as it is not accepted, I keep using the prefix "vir-" for marking maleness and the infix "-in-" for marking femaleness. Every other, non-family-member-word I treat as gender-neutral.

Mustelvulpo (Arată profil) 24 noiembrie 2011, 05:34:21

I remember when I was a child needing parental permission for some activity I would be told " A parent must sign this permission slip" meaning either my mother or my father. It seems to me more economical to say "Gepatro devas subskribi ĉi tiun permisilon" in preference to "unu el viaj gepatroj." But is the longer phrase preferable to the purist?

Evildela (Arată profil) 24 noiembrie 2011, 05:53:36

Mustelvulpo:"Gepatro devas subskribi ĉi tiun permisilon" in preference to "unu el viaj gepatroj." But is the longer phrase preferable to the purist?
I use gepatro, just because its widely established and quite frankly easy to use and understand ridego.gif

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