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On language level in the forums

از erinja, 1 دسامبر 2011

پست‌ها: 66

زبان: English

tommjames (نمایش مشخصات) 2 دسامبر 2011،‏ 23:20:21

Very much in favour of this (the topic of the thread, that is).

As pikolas noted it is discriminatory by nature, but I don't see anything bad in it. I think I'd be of the same view if I were a noob too. Learners will have a place where they can be assured that what they're reading is of at least a decent minimum standard. Experienced speakers will have a place to discuss the finer points of the language, without constantly having to parse tiresome Esperanto. For me that's a win all round.

And anyway, nobody's stopping anybody from putting in the effort necessary to progress to the level where they may be permitted to post in the spertulejo, so it's not really all that discriminatory.

If such a forum had existed when I was learning it would have probably just given me a bit of extra motivation to learn. I wouldn't have found it in the least bit offensive.

Bruso (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 10:23:19

What about requiring language corrections to be in a separate post and clearly marked, like:
GRAMMAR POINT:
You said "La virino amas lan virinon."

This should be "La virino amas la virinon." The word "la" is invariable.

1Guy1 (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 11:24:43

tommjames: As pikolas noted it is discriminatory by nature,
I cannot see how this proposal can really be called discriminatory. No one is excluded because of gender, race or religion. Everyone has the chance to get good enough to be included.

Just because I go jogging does not mean that I can compete in the London Olympics. No one would call that discrimination, it is merit based. In fact, I will probably have far more chance of ending up being able to post in an advanced Esperanto forum, just after I master riding that flying pig I've been waiting for okulumo.gif

Bemused (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 12:26:37

As an absolute beginner in the Esperanto language I have been trying to read and understand the Esperanto in this forum. I would prefer to learn correctly rather than incorrectly.Therefore I suggest that an introduction to this forum explains that it is subject to moderation and correction by moderators. These persons would have to pass testing in mastery of the language to a certain level as part of the selection process. This would improve the learning experience for all users while eliminating the risk of it becoming a forum for "language snobs" trying to make themselves feel better than others and alienating new users in the process.

erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 13:49:25

We can certainly add moderation (and we do plan to add more moderation) but correcting all of the errors in someone's post is a daunting task, when it comes to a long post that is chock-full of errors. Sometimes it is so confused that you are not even sure what the person meant to say, so you can't even be sure if your corrections match the person's intent.

When the site was first launched we thought about correcting all of the posts linguistically, but we concluded that it would be too much work.

unpensador (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 14:31:26

RiotNrrd:I totally agree with Erinja.

The reason we shouldn't allow Esperanto-only posts in the English section is because there are likely many people visiting the English section that do not (yet) speak Esperanto. Seeing big blocks of what is (to them) incomprehensible gobbledygook in what is ostensibly a place for beginners is a great way to scare the beginners off.

The forums are clearly marked as to what language is expected in each one. I don't see why this is troublesome.
Erinja, If the third idea is the one you explain here I think it's the best one. Your ideas are very sensible (well-headed or balanced), logical and reasonable (and I don't intend to flatter you or any one else)

[Se la tria ideo estas tian de vi mi kredas ke ĝi estas la plej bona; ĝi estas la plej saĝa (kaj mi ne intencas flati iun ajn].

I would also vote the second one (though it is not my case), but at least here in my country people are very shy and even frightened about looking ridiculous or something like that especially about languages (for other things they are very daring or even rude or sassy and have no fear about making huge spelling mistakes (but in Spanish).

I make some propaganda about this site, but I feel that they many do not dare to come because of the above said and they get "scared" (I think).

Greetings!

Eduardoridulo.gif

erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 15:09:00

Unpensador, which ideas were you referring to, when you mentioned the "second" and "third" idea? I've lost count of the ideas proposed here, and I can't pick out which ones you meant.

AnFu (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 16:41:10

sudanglo:Robb, the solution to impenetrable English in the English Language forum is to allow non-native speakers who post there to put their posts in Esperanto.

I've argued for this in the past but met with stern opposition (not well-grounded in my view).
Ĉiuj personoj jam povas skribi Angle kaj Esperante ĉe Angla forumo eĉ per Esperanto erara kaj la Angla erara. Por skribri Esperante ĉe Angla forumo oni nur devas meti Anglan tradukton de la Esperanta mensaĝo, eĉ se la Angla tradukto estas preskaŭ ne komprenibla.

Translation: Any people are already able to write English and Esperanto at Englich forum even by bad Esperanto and English bad. To write Esperanto within the English forum one only must put English translation of Esperanto mesage even if English translation very dificult understand.

See what I did there?

erinja (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 18:06:15

AnFu:Any people are already able to write English and Esperanto at Englich forum even by bad Esperanto and English bad.
Right. My philosophy is that if someone wishes to post in Esperanto, they certainly can, and if they don't speak English, all they have to do is use Google Translate to get an (imperfect) English translation of what they meant to say, by inputting the text in their native language. Google Translate covers a lot of languages, and it is unlikely that this person doesn't speak even one of those languages.

Those who speak perfect Esperanto can read the Esperanto post and understand it. Those who are beginners and are unable to understand the Esperanto can at least have access to some kind of English translation, albeit an imperfect one. That's still better than a block of text that you understand none of.

qwertz (نمایش مشخصات) 3 دسامبر 2011،‏ 20:13:08

Another idea: Assuming that new lernu forum system is based at an wiki system.

Use case: one full thread is marked high-level language level. Every lernu.net user could use wiki facility to export that thread to some translation memory system file format. Afterwards someones could feed that TMS with the lernu.net export. Doing that someones could build-up self-checked TMS vocabulary patterns. That could push i.e. subtitle creation of non-Esperanto movies.

Are there some professional translater here?

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