You could argue that by offering a forum in English, we are siphoning off English speakers from the Esperanto forums by giving them a chance to discuss topics in their native language, rather than practicing their Esperanto.

Not exactly, since it's an Esperanto forum and it wouldn't make sense for people to only post in the national language forums, an ordinary non-Esperanto forum would fill that gap.

Surely it only concerns activity in Esperanto-only forums? Splitting advanced and non-advanced there.

I hope I don't come across as rudely argumentative in only my third post!

Vestitor:Not exactly, since it's an Esperanto forum and it wouldn't make sense for people to only post in the national language forums, an ordinary non-Esperanto forum would fill that gap.

Actually, I seldom post outside the English forum here. But I am not here to learn, I'm here to teach, so I hang out where the beginners are. Lots of people of all Esperanto levels, from beginner to advanced, enjoy posting in the non-Esperanto forums to discuss Esperanto's grammar and its community. The beginners post here because they are shy about trying out their Esperanto, or feel unable to express their questions in Esperanto, or just because they enjoy the conversations. Advanced speakers are here because they enjoy the conversations on all different topics (somehow linked to Esperanto, however) or because they enjoy helping beginners. This is, after all, a learning website, and advanced speakers are unlikely to hang around here if they are only interested in talking to other advanced speakers, to the exclusion of everyone else.

I hope I don't come across as rudely argumentative in only my third post!

Not at all. We're used to newbies with lots of questions, and the lernu forums are among the most friendly and supportive that you're likely to find online.

My apologies to anyone who thought i was suggesting that "moderators" would have to correct all postings.

A better way to explain the thought is that persons with provable mastery of the Esperanto language could have the title "Volunteer Esperanto Language Tutor" displayed beneath their name on forum posts.

These persons would have no obligations or formal authority different to other forum users.

However the title would indicate to other users that these persons had good skills and therefore their posts would be worth reading as a guide to form, regardless of content.
Also, if the tutors did choose at any time to correct the language of others then perhaps people would be less likely to be offended or embarrassed than if some random person commented on their use of the language.

erinja:

qwertz:
Imagine an forum interface at which someones could make modifications (=language correction = different status inside wiki system) only visible to regarding person.

That would be the opposite goal of having a separate forum. The point of having an advanced forum, is that beginners can read a forum and know that the grammar in those discussions is correct.

Its my personal preference: It would me upset to find discussion topic interesting and being not capable to take part. So beginners has to switch from being interested at discussion topic to being other-directed/fremdbestimmt full polyglott/language trainees, too. Thats probably same situation like being restricted at visitor loge and passive participating at onsite parliament discussion. (Its possible to visit German parliament/Deutsche Bundestag and State parliament/Landestag discussions). But an online forum community is different. That's no parliament situation. If I join online forum I expect full access to every part of conversation area. I don't see it offending being corrected. But I see it offending to be excluded due to absent language skills. In my opinion, that "glass pane"-forum section of advanced speakers supports non-community behaviour. I would not see there an problem if everybody at lernu.net forum would have strong community beliefs. Means being capable of behaviour switching by step into and out of the language perfectionism area (somewhat like lions cage). But - sorry about - that's definitivly not all over present state at lernu.net forum. I would like cite RiotNrrd ( 2011-12-03 21:22:29 ) here again:

RiotNrrd:
What I mean is that we as a community should adopt the attitude that since we are participating in an educational effort - the whole point of Lernu, after all - then what we write here is by default subject to scrutiny and correction.

By anyone and by everyone.

I see that like an request to take care and develop of community beliefs. I full agree to that. Are everybody at lernu.net forum really would accept this? I'm in doubt.

RiotNrrd:
Every (Esperanto) forum post should be thought of and treated as a small self-assigned essay, whose form is just as important as its content, and which by being posted is, in effect, being "handed in" to the community for comment and correction.

This doesn't require any kind of physical change to the forum. This just requires a change in approach to the forum by its participants and the establishment of a new generally accepted social norm.

We are all students. We are all teachers.

Very nice conclusion: "We are all students. We are all teachers."

erinja:
If the corrections are not shown to all of the forum's readers, then only the person who wrote the original post can benefit from the corrections. The other Esperanto learners reading the forum will be unable to learn from the corrections.

Thats an access control list matter. I would set by default to "corrections only visible to original posting user". Maybe that could be overall default settings which someones could change at every posting (like removing small tick button feature to grant view access of corrections to everybody). Moderators and administration should have full access.

Of course, if that idea of that regarding lernu.net glass pane forum/advanced forum gets reality, it should not be possible to supress correction view(wiki-system based) inside that advanced section. That would push language level at that glass pane forum/advanced forum up to the limit. Making errors will be visible to every forum user. There's high demand of mental fitness insides Lion's cage.

erinja:

qwertz:
That makes that advanced speakers conversation somewhat closed to beginners means it excludes beginners.

Advanced speakers can speak in a way that beginners can understand if they want to. But they don't always want to. It takes a lot of patience to talk to beginners. Most Esperanto speakers are glad to do it, up to a point. And at a certain point, they just want to have a real conversation in fluent Esperanto, without worrying about offending some beginner who is trying to listen in.

Yes, I know. Patience depends somewhat at culture mentality. I work together with non-native Germans inside working environment.

erinja:
Or else maybe you need to find some new friends. If someone likes you, then they make an extra effort to include you in the conversation, even if you are a beginner and they are an advanced speaker.

If advanced speakers are community-minded: Yes. Community-minded folks everytime have deep motivation to keep environment at radar focus. Of course, that awareness could suffer of personal non-balance, missing sleep, mentality-based impatience or simply daydreaming. But keeping folks around you at radar focus to help them, thats one of base community principles. But of course it shouldn't go to group pressure any individualism away. I see that like an fading switch status.

At last four Esperanto youth events (IS/Jefo-FESTO/JES) I participated, that ideal community mostly excists the first half part of the event. The second half part people get tired. Its interesting that an Dolchamar song made me aware of that "fact"(?). Dolchamar: tritagaj aferoj (03)

erinja:
If someone is talking quickly and ignoring you, then probably they are not interested in talking to you (regardless of your language level), and you should find someone else to talk to.

Yes, I full agree and practice it, too. I also see responsibility of advanced speakers to implement language beginner into language community. (doesn't relates only to language skills) In result: I deny to serve someones egocentrism. I don't need that interpersonal immature show done by adults.

qwertz:Yes, I full agree and practice it, too. I also see responsibility of advanced speakers to implement language beginner into language community.

Advanced speakers do not have a responsibility to talk to beginners any time when a beginner wants to talk to them, and to include beginners in their conversation whenever they approach them.

Speaking to beginners is sometimes enjoyable and sometimes it is not. I think that at most Esperanto events, every effort is made to make beginners feel welcome. However, advanced speakers want to enjoy the Esperanto event too, and if they want to improve their own Esperanto, they have to talk to other advanced speakers.

If a beginner expects that advanced speakers should bring every conversation down to a beginner level every time a beginner approaches, then that beginner is being selfish, and seems to believe that the entire world should revolve around beginners. If advanced speakers were expected to do that every time a beginner approached, they would probably stop attending Esperanto events because it would be intolerably boring.

Adults don't stop talking and bring their conversations to a child's level every time a child approaches. Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Children may get bored or annoyed at these "boring" adult conversations that they don't understand, but they must learn that the world doesn't revolve around them. Some conversations include children, and some do not. Esperanto beginners are (mostly) adults, so they should already understand this concept and not be offended when advanced speakers don't always stop what they're doing and bring their conversations to a beginner's level.

erinja:

qwertz:
Yes, I full agree and practice it, too. I also see responsibility of advanced speakers to implement language beginner into language community.

Advanced speakers do not have a responsibility to talk to beginners any time when a beginner wants to talk to them, and to include beginners in their conversation whenever they approach them.

Okay. I agree. But advanced speaker should be capable to aware, if some beginners take lot of effort to self-convince/un-block/sich überwinden, that s/he starts conversation trials to advanced speakers. The active "start conversation" should be done as often as possible by advanced speakers. Otherwise that language community will not enlarge because beginners encloses to other beginners who speak same language (krokodili).

erinja:
Speaking to beginners is sometimes enjoyable and sometimes it is not. I think that at most Esperanto events, every effort is made to make beginners feel welcome.

I don't think so because mostly organisation team is somewhat exhausted. At JES meeting there excists an responsible person (novulo) who tries to serve beginners needs. Beginners integration really depends on, if that person has some education/teaching/coaching background.

erinja:
However, advanced speakers want to enjoy the Esperanto event too, and if they want to improve their own Esperanto, they have to talk to other advanced speakers.

erinja:
If a beginner expects that advanced speakers should bring every conversation down to a beginner level every time a beginner approaches, then that beginner is being selfish, and seems to believe that the entire world should revolve around beginners.

I really don't understand that getting selfish belief. So beginners needs are dangerous for advanced speakers enjoyment? At 4 European Esperanto youth events I also did not encounter such situations you described. Did you speculate or had you detailed experiences with that beginners behaviour?

erinja:
If advanced speakers were expected to do that every time a beginner approached, they would probably stop attending Esperanto events because it would be intolerably boring.

Could another advanced speaker comment that?

erinja:
Adults don't stop talking and bring their conversations to a child's level every time a child approaches.

Of course, they have not to stop. Children need to learn that barriers excists and someones has to fit into family or Kindergarden community.

erinja:
Sometimes they do, and sometimes they don't. Children may get bored or annoyed at these "boring" adult conversations that they don't understand, but they must learn that the world doesn't revolve around them. Some conversations include children, and some do not. Esperanto beginners are (mostly) adults, so they should already understand this concept and not be offended when advanced speakers don't always stop what they're doing and bring their conversations to a beginner's level.

Of course, adult learners should understand that concept. And they concludes that having fun some workaround could be to "same-language-(level)-ghetto-ing" at Esperanto renkontiĝon. Currently I have no idea how to avoid or break-up that language level "ghetto-ing". For me it looks like the question if different language level participants really want to be part of same community.

I voted "Great Idea" but I have to say that this was not my initial reaction. My first thought was that I would be excluded from the "elite" forums and I did not like that. After a little reflection and listening to the various view points presented in this thread I have come to the conclusion that I believe that this is a good idea. I feel quite comfortable in reading and understanding most of what is written in the Esperanto but rarely post myself because I am not yet very comfortable with my expressive skills. I enjoy seeing how others express their ideas in Esperanto and I think that seeing it done well in an "elite" forum would provide an excellent example for me to emulate. In short, go for it!