글: 79
언어: English
ceigered (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 7일 오전 1:59:10
1Guy1:I can't remember them anymore, they're things I think up out of the blue on the spot and forget the same wayceigered:Don't be a tease. Do feel free to share some good examples. We could all try & use them & see if they catch onsudanglo:It is this lack of restriction that is unfamiliar.It's this blasted lack of restriction that's led to me making up words on the spot in spoken English as if it's Esperanto!
But things like using -est, -y, -ish etc where they're not meant to be, combining them with verbs, etc, so eventually we get stuff like:
"I'm a bit of a phrase-book-reading-ish man"
(when "Phrase book reader" or "I like to read phrase books" would work much better!
) 
Vestitor (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 7일 오후 1:06:25
sudanglo:On the subject of mastery, does anybody have a clear idea of what someone means when he (or she) says they can speak 5 languages.Probably not that they have total mastery, Unless one happens to be this guy.
I can get by when we drive over to France or Germany, but not to the extent that I feel comfortable in English or Dutch.
I suppose mastery means complete control over what you want to say, with all the tools at your disposal. Some people lack this to the point of "mastery" even in their native language. But even a native speaker with an average vocabulary tends to be much more fluent and creative with language than a foreign person speaking a highly "educated" version of a language.
Yes, "mastery" is a slippery customer.
ceigered (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 13일 오후 4:19:35
sudanglo:On the subject of mastery, does anybody have a clear idea of what someone means when he (or she) says they can speak 5 languages.I'd assume they can get by in all 5, e.g. survive, enjoy life, which is still pretty impressive to me so I hope no professional polyglots are taking offence, but there's also people who say they can speak 5 when really they can only pronounce words with an accent and say "please/thankyou/goodbye", and then there are those who are fluent in 5 languages, but I'd expect those people to say they're fluent in 5 languages so they don't get confused with the former categories, but some people are humble and try to avoid categorising themselves as fluent because they have an accent or forget words from time to time.
I'd be happy if I could survive with 5 different languages alone though, although when I think about the prospects of it, that isn't a very lofty goal apart from having something to boast about to friends and family.
Running a successful business, curing cancer or controlling the universe, now THOSE are lofty goals in my mind
. 
ludomastro (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오전 12:29:36
I would expect that Esperanto fluency will take me between 4 & 5 years unless I am able to practice speaking. For comparison I became fluent in Spanish after nearly two years of immersion.
Vestitor (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오전 1:05:19
ludomastro:Taking this situation of immersion and use into consideration, would it be fair to say that it is Esperanto fluency that takes about 4-5 years, rather than 'mastery' in the sense of general theoretical proficiency?
I would expect that Esperanto fluency will take me between 4 & 5 years unless I am able to practice speaking. For comparison I became fluent in Spanish after nearly two years of immersion.
In the original question 'mastery' probably didn't mean complete control over every aspect, but rather learning the fundamentals.
And if the answer is: yes, then it may have to be admitted that while Esperanto is easier to learn in some ways, it comes out at about the same time frame as mastering a regular foreign language due to a lack of exposure to assist practised fluency.
erinja (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오전 1:45:43
Vestitor:Again, how much time are you going to spend? Even without being in an Esperanto immersion environment, fluency can be reached in a year if you have a degree of linguistic talent and take time to work at it.ludomastro:Taking this situation of immersion and use into consideration, would it be fair to say that it is Esperanto fluency that takes about 4-5 years, rather than 'mastery' in the sense of general theoretical proficiency?
I would expect that Esperanto fluency will take me between 4 & 5 years unless I am able to practice speaking. For comparison I became fluent in Spanish after nearly two years of immersion.
You're not going to get fluent in that time by studying the language for one hour a week. But if you actively work at it, you read in Esperanto regularly, you correspond in Esperanto regularly, you do voice chats, then yes, you absolutely can do it.
Sitting on your duff and doing not much - yes, it will take you 4 or 5 years, or forever! You have to work at it actively or you won't ever reach fluency. But you can absolutely achieve near-fluency from your home, using internet resources, and then attending one or two in-person Esperanto events, for that immersive experience, will push you over the edge into true fluency.
qwertz (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오후 1:24:02
- without much considering regarding that this language mixup could be understood by English natives. Someones can also see/hear that language code switching at this video (English-Russian-Lithuanian) i.e. 0:58 minute and other parts. ludomastro (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오후 9:43:16
I would agree with you, except you mentioned voice chats and in-person communication. I consider both to be speaking which would cut down significantly on the learning curve. I was only comenting on the stare at a book method.
@Vestitor:
I think I failed to explain how I see MASTERY versus FLUENCY. I see MASTERY as something that only comes with a lifetime of use. FLUENCY comes from time well invested as erinja pointed out. What you are describing sounds to me like basic communication skills. Being able to ask & respond to simple questions, order food, get a cab, etc.
@All:
I got my wife to read a few sections from the intro this morning. She was able to comprehend 65 - 70% of lesson two's reading example without help OR prior study of the lessons. English is her native language and she took a little Spanish in high school. However, she would be the first to tell you she couldn't ask for the rest room in another language. I think that highlights the ease of picking up Esperanto very well. With adequate VOCAL practice I think you could be CONVERSANT in three months and FLUENT in six to twelve.
erinja (프로필 보기) 2011년 12월 17일 오후 10:26:33
ludomastro:@ erinja:Sorry, I misunderstood you, then. I thought you were talking about the resources available to you, personally, so I assumed that the internet would count as a resource.
I would agree with you, except you mentioned voice chats and in-person communication. I consider both to be speaking which would cut down significantly on the learning curve. I was only comenting on the stare at a book method.
If a person were to limit himself or herself only to books and not use any internet resources, it would be more difficult. But a person willing to put in the necessary time could still, in my opinion, achieve fluency in less than 4-5 years. You'd have to do a lot of reading texts aloud and talking to yourself. Listening comprehension would be the most difficult thing, for that person.